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You gotta have soul.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So everything is predestined?
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As nearly as i can tell, yes.

And don't assume i'm certain about these things. As i've told you before, i'm certain about nothing.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well then why even bother to do anything?
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why not? Whether or not there is free will is largely irrelevent, in terms of practical matters. Either way, the perceived results are exactly the same.

Consider tomatoes. Some people say they're fruits. Others say they're vegetables.
But, in terms of actually eating a tomato, does it matter whether it's a fruit or a vegetable? Not really, no. It has all the same properties either way. It behaves, and tastes, exactly the same.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The analogy is ridiculous, but back to your thing, of course it matters ifd there is free will, if there is not, then nothing you do matters, so might as well do nothing.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What's the purpose of life?

I believe that i choose my own purpose, and as far as i can tell, the best purpose i can choose is the achievement of happiness.

Having, or not having, free will is not relevent to that objective. Happiness happens with or without it.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well if you choose your own purpose it's not predestined.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Except it is. My choice is predestined.

This is what i mean what i say that the concept of 'free will' doesn't make much sense.

I consider a 'choice' (or any other sort of thought) to be a product of physical interactions that take place in my brain. In that manner, it is already determined, in that it follows natural laws.

But if thoughts or choices are not the products of naturalistic laws...
Then things suddenly make a lot less sense.

I mean, after all, our thoughts are ordered to some degree. We don't lay on the ground, spasming and gargling incoherently. We do particular things in particular orders for particular reasons. And those thoughts, one way or another, interact physically with the brain and the body.

How is it that something that occurs in an ordered manner is NOT predetermined? Order entails following a certain pattern, and the thing about patterns is that they're entirely predetermined.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If I set out two different domino lines, each incredibly complex, one labeled heads, and the other labeled tails, then i flip a coin, is it predetermined which one will be set off first? No matter how complex the ordered system is, the beginning of it could still be complete chance, or, my personal choice, between flipping it onto the back of my hand or not.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So where do you think the randomness lies? Some choices are ordered, some aren't. Where do you draw the line?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think it lies in the big decisions, like whether violence is ok, or how far exactly you would go to save your loved ones, I like to think that there are some things that are just plain good, not neccesarily human action, but that there is some things that are just right, and that deep down, everyone has a soul, not a conscience, because thats societal constructs and survival traits, but something different, that thing you feel when your alone(or not) in bed at night and you think why, that thing that pulls at you when someone you really love laughs in just that way that only they can, I think all the smaller things are influenced by that big thing and also how you've been brought up, but the big things and how you feel about them are what makes you you.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
But none of those things are random. They show order.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, further down the line, but the original decisions aren't in any particular order, otherwise my friend couldn't do drugs box and enjoy beating people up but also play DnD with me.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
...why not? I'm not quite sure what you're saying.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's one of the falcities of religion....if God is so omnipotent and everything is preordained...then why do anything
God has preordained it
This has been taken to the extreme over in the Middle East...our troops training the Iraqi's have been wracking their brains because every time something would go wrong or if the Iraqi's came on the scene late they'd say..."Imshala" which I think is God says it's so

...another way to look at it is
If I go into a supermarket I can carry out a Turkey Breast because God has pre-ordained it?
I think this is a left-over from biblical times when the people faced with extra-ordinary hardships would come to the Church and ask ..Why am I having to go thru this?
The church would say......because God has pre-ordained this
Putting the responsibility away from them
and giving it to something out there....the white bearded man in the clouds
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