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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: you go hamas! Reply with quote
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....ians_hamas
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
uh oh.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
thelast007 wrote:
uh oh.


hey man if israel and the u.s. are allowed to retaliate against acts of terror by brutally murdering civilians, then hamas has every right to do the same.
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chevydriver1123
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
thelast007 wrote:
uh oh.


hey man if israel and the u.s. are allowed to retaliate against acts of terror by brutally murdering civilians, then hamas has every right to do the same.



and this is what we call an endless cycle of violence
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
chevydriver1123 wrote:
jusdeadphunky wrote:
thelast007 wrote:
uh oh.


hey man if israel and the u.s. are allowed to retaliate against acts of terror by brutally murdering civilians, then hamas has every right to do the same.



and this is what we call an endless cycle of violence


well yes, but would you rather a situation in which a government just sits back and does nothing? israel is killing innocent civilians, they are not giving stolen land back, they are not stopping stealing more land with their apartheid wall, they are not funding the democratically elected government of the palestinian people, etc.

things are not just give, give, give...
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
thelast007 wrote:
uh oh.


hey man if israel and the u.s. are allowed to retaliate against acts of terror by brutally murdering civilians, then hamas has every right to do the same.


yep.

i only wish i didn't feel like i was comparing my self to an unjust act by the u.s. when agreeing to that. but i see what you're saying.

(i said "uh oh" from the innocent citizens stand point.)
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
chevydriver1123 wrote:
jusdeadphunky wrote:
thelast007 wrote:
uh oh.


hey man if israel and the u.s. are allowed to retaliate against acts of terror by brutally murdering civilians, then hamas has every right to do the same.



and this is what we call an endless cycle of violence


soo true.

the fact is some people rather live fighting for justice for the rest of their lives and their children's lives than to live in peace under a horrible injustice.

Out of sheer curiosity (not argument) am i correct you'd do the latter?
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
hey jusdeadphunky,

I was thinking on another end. These are 2 very religious groups.
Just like the story in the bible about the two women fighting over the baby in court. The judge said cut it in half. and the real mother said no no. let the thief woman have the baby. because she loved it sooo and would rather see it alive she let the baby go.

At what point do you have to give up what is rightfully yours in order to protect and preserve what it is you want. Peace.

the real mother wanted her baby but more than that she wanted a healthy baby in one whole piece.

And religion often teaches what is given in gods name is given back ten fold.

Shouldn't it also be peace and God they seek over land and symbols of God.

The world can see the truth.

religiously it is said that if the wrong person took the land and the right person left the land. no good would ever come to that land under it's wrongful inhabiters.

Out of curiosity I'd love to hear your thought on the above. what do you think?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This source gives a little more depth and context to the events, painting a little less of a one-sided picture:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....97,00.html
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
This source gives a little more depth and context to the events, painting a little less of a one-sided picture:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....97,00.html


Here is the NPR version, interesting how stories always differ from source to source:
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....Id=4755346
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
This source gives a little more depth and context to the events, painting a little less of a one-sided picture:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....97,00.html


Here is the NPR version, interesting how stories always differ from source to source:
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....Id=4755346

Your citation is an NPR story from 2005. The coverage differs because the events were different.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
Xerxes wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
This source gives a little more depth and context to the events, painting a little less of a one-sided picture:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....97,00.html


Here is the NPR version, interesting how stories always differ from source to source:
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....Id=4755346

Your citation is an NPR story from 2005. The coverage differs because the events were different.


You're right Embarassed That would explain why they were so different
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Raibeart
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
1967-2001: Israel Provides Support to Militant Islamic Groups in the West Bank and Gaza

Following the Six Day War, Israel takes over the administration of the West Bank and Gaza. Whereas Egyptian President Gamal Abddul Nasser had been tough on Islamist militants (see 1954 - 1970), Israel is much more permissive. One of their first actions is to release Sheikh Ahmed Yassin from prison. Yassin, a charismatic radical Islamist and the future founder of Hamas had been jailed in 1965 during one of Nasser’s crackdowns. [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 195] David Shipler, a former New York Times reporter, later recounts that he was told by the military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, that the Israeli government had financed the Islamic movement to couteract the PLO and the communists.According to Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, “we saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism.” Yassin will later form Hamas as the military arm of his organizations (see 1987). [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 195, 197, 198]

Entity Tags: Anthony Cordesman, Larry C. Johnson, Hamas, Palestinian Liberation Organization

Timeline Tags: Western Support for Islamic Militancy
1973-1978: With Israel’s support, Ahmed Yassin Forms Islamist Organizations in the West Bank and Gaza

In 1973 Israeli military authorities in charge of the West Bank and Gaza allow Sheikh Ahmed Yassin to establish the Islamic Center, an Islamic fundamentalist organization. With Israel’s support, Yassin’s organization soon gains control of hundreds of mosques, charities, and schools which serve as recruiting centers for militant Islamic fundamentalism. In 1976 Yassin creates another organization called the Islamic Association that forms hundreds of branches in Gaza. In 1978 the Islamic Association is licensed by the government of Menachem Begin over the objections of moderate Palesinians including the Commissioner of the Muslim Waqf in the Gaza Strip, Rafat Abu Shaban. Yassin also recieves funding from business leaders in Saudi Arabia who are also hostile to the secular PLO for religious reasons. The Saudi government, however, steps in and attempts to halt the private funds going to Yassin, because they view him as a tool of Israel. [United Press International, 2/24/2001; CounterPunch, 1/18/2003; Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 195 - 197]

Entity Tags: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Islamic Center, Rafat Abu Shaban, Islamic Association, Saudi Arabia, Israel

Timeline Tags: Western Support for Islamic Militancy
1987: Hamas Forms with the Support of Israeli Intelligence

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin forms Hamas as the military arm of his Islamic Association, which had been licensed by Israel ten years earlier (see 1973-1978). According to Charles Freeman, a former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia, “Israel started Hamas. It was a project of Shin Bet, which had a feeling that they could use it to hem in the PLO.” [CounterPunch, 1/18/2003; Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 191, 208] Anthony Cordesman, a Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies, states that Israel “aided Hamas directly—the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO.” A former senior CIA official speaking to UPI describes Israel’s support for Hamas as “a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative.” Further, according to an unnamed US government official, “the thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the other groups, if they gained control, would refuse to have anything to do with the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place.” Larry Johnson, a counter-terrorism official at the State Department, states: “The Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism. They are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer. They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it.” [United Press International, 2/24/2001 Sources: Larry C. Johnson, Unnamed former CIA official]

Entity Tags: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Israel, Bin Laden Family

Timeline Tags: Western Support for Islamic Militancy, Complete 911 Timeline

http://www.cooperativeresearch.....ncy_202701
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pot, kettle, same colour.
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Raibeart
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah Lester. The big difference though is,

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact
Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
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