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fellfire
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, but I thought that maybe a challenge would bring him out from under his bridge.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Exton is too goatish.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You're arguing a point that assumes nature and the living things in it are just a bag of chemicals that were randomly placed together
Living things do not follow all laws and regulations that govern thermodynamics and chemical equations
...they and we have a vested interest in procreating and staying alive
THAT is the basis of how evolution works over time
you have to see the forest through the trees on this
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
joeyjock wrote:

Living things do not follow all laws and regulations that govern thermodynamics and chemical equations


Actually, they do.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Living things on earth play with these rules and add to the complexity of life as we know it and we are finding life in more and more places we didn't think it could exist
bacteria in hotsprings
200 year old tube worms at volcanic vents
ie: arctic and antarctic fish do not have blood that freezes in below freezing temps...
blood as a liquid freezes at 32F 0C and this should keep animals from being able to live in these conditions
EVOLUTION has equiped these lifeforms with the ability to do so
they have a propylene glycol-like substance in their blood that prevents this from happening
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Willie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:34 pm    Post subject: Theory of Evolution Reply with quote
Evolution is a theory. By definition it is conjecture, unproven, a guess. The problem most Christians have with it being taught in school is that it is, more often than not, taught as fact and those who disagree with this theory are riduculed.

Christians allow their faith to sustain them and are comfortable with believing the God of the universe spoke it into being.

Evolutionists reject God's word and basically say, Darwin said it, or some other person they trust more than the Bible, and they choose to believe Man.

Keep in mind, evolution has never been proven or it would no longer be considered only theory, thus faith is required as the science is not proven.

All in all it comes down to the Humanism movement which is out to destroy belief in God. Darwin, himself, was angry with God and set out to disprove His existence. To deny evolution is out to disprove God is to deny Darwin's primary motivational factor.
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Lynx
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's a drawn-out argument, but ineffective. Writing it off as an anti-God movement proves nothing.

But hey, speaking of theories, do you remember the Theory of Relativity? According to my various Biology teachers, it's now simply Relativity. Simply because one does not understand a theory or it has not yet been proven does not mean it cannot be explained and taught.

Evolution is such a developed theory that it can actually be taught in an effective manner in schools, nor does it require "faith". The theory of evolution is based on a large collection of very provable data, but the theory as it falls into place as a whole has not yet been proven. It's sort of like the argument against atheists, where people argue that atheism requires faith that God does not exist. It has nothing to do with needing faith to believe that God does not exist; there is no tangible evidence to the contrary, so there is no reason for an entirely logic-based human to believe otherwise.

It is not simply an idea taught to disprove God. I'd argue that evolution being correct or not is irrelevant to God's existence as God's existence doesn't rest solely on the idea that we are created by God (though many people on both sides like to frame the issue as such). The only thing that would really prove wrong would be the book of Genesis, which many practicing believers only take as stories and not truth as it is.

Darwin's feelings on the subject are also irrelevant. Perhaps Edison was pissed that he was always having to light candles to see, so he invented electricity. Motivation doesn't destroy scientific findings. And also, your arguments against evolution are based on feelings and anger towards the "anti-God" crowd. By your own argument, doesn't that invalidate your argument as well?

But anway, I'm not really catching your point on how any of this invalidates evolution.
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Willie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Not Tossing Ideas Reply with quote
No point to catch. Fact is evolution is unproven science as is creationism. Takes faith on the part of the individual to believe either.

There are numerous scientists who have offered substanial evidence to discredit evolution, and I will not list them out along with web sites to substaniate the statement.

If you are as astute as you claim, you are well aware of the arguments from the other side.

Evolution is a part of the Humanist Movement to take God out of our country. It IS the basis of the theory and to deny this is to deny Darwin's primary motivation.
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Lynx
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You're missing the point. As an evolutionist (and I'm also speaking for just about every evolutionist I've ever spoken to or learned from), Darwin's motivations are irrelevant to his end result. As someone who has, as you've said, learned many things from both sides of the arguments, I've found that there is far more evidence in support of evolution than there is against it, and as such, I support the general teaching of evolution, though I do think there may be some things that are not totally correct. That is why research is performed though, so that mistakes in thinking can be corrected. Because evolution is called a theory does not mean that it is not factually- or scientifically-based.

But I sincerely doubt any of that matters to you. You appear to be so caught up in the idea of the "religion war" that you aren't willing to take a serious look at any of the material being presented. That's obvious in your repeated statements of Darwin's intent, as if that should mean anything about the theory itself.

If you want to treat evolution as an attack on God, that is perfectly fine. Just be aware that there are many evolutionists who don't believe in evolution just because it has the potential to prove religion wrong. That's not something I've ever considered when I think about evolution itself (it does come to mind when I watch religious debates however).
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Willie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, the FACT that evolution continues to be Theory, does prove that enough evidence has not been gathered to prove evolution. Once this happens it will no longer be theory.

Evolution from its inception WAS an all out anger attack against God. I understand for you to accept this makes me right and you wrong and therefore you want to move the argument into a different arena.

Nice try, but I'm not taking the bait. And by the way -- I'm not angry.

As I stated in my first post - Just wish the theory were being taught to the children in this country as nothing more than what it is --- unproven science.
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Lynx
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Theory of relativity anyone? *whistles*

Move on, troll.
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Willie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lynx, not wanting to continue discussing as my point really was the way evolution is being used by Humanists and taught to our children.

Isn't it somewhat amazing, and I'm not trying to be coy, that the very first verses God gave us in the Bible are: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

He allowed all of us the option to believe in Him or reject Him in the very first verse of the Bible.

Again, I am not trying to continue our discussion. Just have always found this to give great evidence to the goodness of God as He doesn't require people to read the entire book before they make their decision.

Maybe it's just me............
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fellfire
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Willie wrote:
Actually, the FACT that evolution continues to be Theory, does prove that enough evidence has not been gathered to prove evolution. Once this happens it will no longer be theory.


By you're assertion, then Gravity has not been proven as fact. Modal Logic has not been proven as fact. Relativety has not been proven as fact.

What anti-religious intentions do those theories have?

Willie wrote:
Evolution from its inception WAS an all out anger attack against God.


And your proof of this assertion is ... what chapter and verse of the bible? Or do you have some other source to rely on that Evolution, from its inception, was an all out anger attack against God?
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fellfire
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Willie wrote:
Lynx, not wanting to continue discussing as my point really was the way evolution is being used by Humanists and taught to our children.


Well, you certainly didn't prove your point in any way, you simply asserted that Evolution was invented to attack god.

Willie wrote:
Isn't it somewhat amazing, and I'm not trying to be coy, that the very first verses God gave us in the Bible are: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

He allowed all of us the option to believe in Him or reject Him in the very first verse of the Bible.



Actually, this is pretty predictable. Every religion in the world starts off with a genesis story that pretty much states that god created everything ... then man came along. So just because judeism copied the religious teaching going on around them is really unamazing. What would have been amazing is if it said something different.

Willie wrote:
Again, I am not trying to continue our discussion. Just have always found this to give great evidence to the goodness of God as He doesn't require people to read the entire book before they make their decision.

Maybe it's just me............


Yeah, it's just you. There is no 'evidence' of anything here other then your interpretation of a significantly translated text based off of the writings of a Semetic tribe which evolved in the ancient middle east.
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Willie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Let's see, I post about not having a problem with the theory of evolution being taught, but with it being taught as proven science. I make a statement that Darwin's desire to prove evolution began because he became angry with God.

I have been accused of being angry, and been told that I can't back up my argument. Now my religion and my God are being attacked.

However, no one has made the case that evolution is a proven science because it cannot be made. And no one wants to discuss Darwin because my statement about him is pretty well documented.

You people attack and change the argument because you cannot make a case that my statements are incorrect. You've been paying too much attention to Move On and Hillary and Bill. If you can't win the argument you can't always bait someone into a totally different argument -- It simply doesn't work all the time.

It won't be long before you'll be accusing me of being a troll. Oh, wait --- that happened within the first 30 minutes.

Can you make your case that my statement is wrong? If you can, make it. If you can't we could've possibly had a discussion about what I said.

Wow!! Now there's a novel idea, Americans talking to each other, even though they don't agree on everything.
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