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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: what would you propose to fix israel/palestine Reply with quote
what are your thoughts? clearly what is being done is not working and our politicians do not want to piss off israel by suggesting a new strategy.

Last edited by jusdeadphunky on Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: what would propose to fix israel/palesting Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
what are your thoughts? clearly what is being done is not working and our politicians do not want to piss off israel by suggesting a new strategy.


Cool, A New Forum. DAMN! That just means more typing....LoL
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: what would propose to fix israel/palesting Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
what are your thoughts? clearly what is being done is not working and our politicians do not want to piss off israel by suggesting a new strategy.

Actually, I think that what is being done is working; Hamas appears to be slowly becoming marginalized as the Palestinian government seeks to find a resolution, the impediment to which is Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel and disavow violence in the furtherance of their goals.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: what would propose to fix israel/palesting Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
jusdeadphunky wrote:
what are your thoughts? clearly what is being done is not working and our politicians do not want to piss off israel by suggesting a new strategy.

Actually, I think that what is being done is working; Hamas appears to be slowly becoming marginalized as the Palestinian government seeks to find a resolution, the impediment to which is Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel and disavow violence in the furtherance of their goals.


the policy that israel is pursuing in regards to hamas, is one that seeks to incite civil war amoungst the palestinians, and at times it seems that plan is working.

the u.s. and israel claim that they want to see the spread of democracy, but it is clear that they only seek this, when it benefits the u.s. and israel. the hamas government was democratically elected by the people of palestine. if you want democracy, you must recognize the will of the people. what does it matter if hamas does not recognize israel? does that change the fact that israel exists? the people of palestine do not want to live under an illegal occupation and i too would support the notion of not officially recognizing israel as a state until israel steps up to the plate and recognizes the state of palestine.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: what would propose to fix israel/palesting Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
the policy that israel is pursuing in regards to hamas, is one that seeks to incite civil war amoungst the palestinians, and at times it seems that plan is working.

the u.s. and israel claim that they want to see the spread of democracy, but it is clear that they only seek this, when it benefits the u.s. and israel. the hamas government was democratically elected by the people of palestine. if you want democracy, you must recognize the will of the people. what does it matter if hamas does not recognize israel? does that change the fact that israel exists? the people of palestine do not want to live under an illegal occupation and i too would support the notion of not officially recognizing israel as a state until israel steps up to the plate and recognizes the state of palestine.

I find your notion that Israel hopes for civil war in Palestine absurd; Israel wants stability and safety for its citizens. Civil war in Palestine would reduce that safety, not increase it. Further, the fact that Israel and the US are unhappy with the choices of Palestinian voters is not the same as wishing to deny them their votes. One can support democracy while decrying its results. (Remember the 2000 US elections?)
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Anym
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If anything diplomatic dealings must be done with Iran and Lebanon to cut funding to this group. I personally think we should aid in the production of nuclear power plants for Iran if it starts turning in members of Hamas.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: what would propose to fix israel/palesting Reply with quote
[quote="TrespassersW"]
Quote:
I find your notion that Israel hopes for civil war in Palestine absurd


oh really...why is it absurd? because one of israel's biggest fears is the size of the palestinian population? it is such a fear that there is a christian TV channel by me that constantly plays an infomercial which begs for $300 to ship a poor jew from russia to israel

to help combat the population gap that is "a threat to israel".

civil wars are extremely effective means of population control.

have you seen what israel's response to hamas is leading to...it is violence between hamas and fatah. the two sides keep getting together to work out internal differences and immediately after progress gets made on that front, israel goes in and destroys that and the infighting sparks up again.

Quote:
Further, the fact that Israel and the US are unhappy with the choices of Palestinian voters is not the same as wishing to deny them their votes. One can support democracy while decrying its results. (Remember the 2000 US elections?)


not in the case of palestine...palestine is being illegally occupied israel and it lacks the power that a normal unoccupied government would possess. you deny funding to the hamas government and you make the democratic elections that took place mean nothing and in fact the policy punishes the palestinian people for participating in democracy.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: what would propose to fix israel/palesting Reply with quote
[quote="jusdeadphunky"][quote="TrespassersW"]
Quote:
I find your notion that Israel hopes for civil war in Palestine absurd

oh really...why is it absurd?
For the exact, specific reason I outlined in the sentence that immediately followed the one you've quoted here. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
civil wars are extremely effective means of population control.

Absurd. Really. Waaaay out there.

Quote:
have you seen what israel's response to hamas is leading to...it is violence between hamas and fatah.

I see... so Israel is not only accountable for what Israel does wrong, they are also responsible for anything Hamas and Fatah do too? Just curious, but what--in your opinion--should Israel's response be to Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist and refusal to set aside violence as a method of expressing themselves? Maybe you're different than me, but if you show me someone who doesn't agree that I have a right to exist and isn't willing to say that they won't harm me, well... I'm not going to sit down and chat with that guy, Period. And the reason Fatah and Hamas are fighting is because Fatah wants to move forward toward peace with Israel which is something Hamas doesn't want because they draw their power from continuing the struggle and presenting themselves to the Palestinian people as the people holding the evil Israeli's at bay, when the only beef the Israeli's have with the Palestinians is the violence done to Israelis by Hamas.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I see... so Israel is not only accountable for what Israel does wrong, they are also responsible for anything Hamas and Fatah do too?


israel is accountable for the actions it takes in this case, which stem from its illegal occupation of palestine, and are causing tensions that show signs of leading to a civil war. give palestine the tax dollars owed to them, that they are unable to collect on their own, because they are illegally occupied. if that was done there would not be a great threat of civil war and democracy in the middle east would be supported.

Quote:
Just curious, but what--in your opinion--should Israel's response be to Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist and refusal to set aside violence as a method of expressing themselves?


i would give them a reason to recognize israel. (i.e. a plan for a two state solution in which israel adheres to the 1967 boarders and ends its illegal occupation of palestine) i would vow to stop my violence against the people of palestine in exchange for a vow from the palestinians to stop theirs.


Last edited by jusdeadphunky on Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Maybe you're different than me, but if you show me someone who doesn't agree that I have a right to exist and isn't willing to say that they won't harm me, well... I'm not going to sit down and chat with that guy, Period.


if there is a guy i know and i steal from him and fuck his wife i am going to expect him to want to beat my ass and i am going to expect him to change that stance until i have admitted and tried to make up for the crimes i have committed against him. but that is just me. but that is just me...i am not an arrogant mother fucker (as are the governments of israel and the u.s.).

Quote:
And the reason Fatah and Hamas are fighting is because Fatah wants to move forward toward peace with Israel which is something Hamas doesn't want


the reason hamas and fatah are fighting is because fatah represents the desires of israel over that of the palestinian people. abbas is an apologist who is willing to sell the people of palestine short in order to appease the u.s.

let me ask you this:

if you had a piece of land and your asshole neighbor (who also fucks your wife) built on it and claimed some of it, then you took him to court and the judge sided with you and told your neighbor to tear down his shed and give you back your land, but he didn't and in fact he claimed and built on more of your land, what would you do?

would you roll over and be like fuck it...keep what you stole from me and what the court said you had to give back and i will stop fucking your wife if you stop fucking mine?


Quote:
when the only beef the Israeli's have with the Palestinians is the violence done to Israelis by Hamas.


bullshit
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
For the exact, specific reason I outlined in the sentence that immediately followed the one you've quoted here. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

civil wars are extremely effective means of population control.


is there something false about that statement or is it that you would like to believe that the israeli government is moral and just?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Glass parking lot


We could pave paradise to make it!!
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Let me ask you this... are the people of Israel any less entitled to a land of their own than the people of Palestine?

And this... did Israel refuse to accept Palestine in 1948 and attack Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq; or was it the other way around?

Also... did Israel have a right to defend itself, once attacked? Did the have a right to continue to do so, each time they were attacked over the years?

Oh, and... having beaten back those attacks, did they have a right to hold onto the territory they had won, which had been used to launch attacks against them?
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
Let me ask you this... are the people of Israel any less entitled to a land of their own than the people of Palestine?


In a sense of 'they were there first', the answer is yes.
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