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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
exton wrote:
Glass parking lot


We could pave paradise to make it!!


No no, that's a concrete parking lot. You make glass parking lots by using nuclear weapons (the heat is so intense that sand and soil get melted into glass).
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
Let me ask you this... are the people of Israel any less entitled to a land of their own than the people of Palestine?


In a sense of 'they were there first', the answer is yes.

Just curious, but how long do you think Jews have been living in that part of the world?
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

Just curious, but how long do you think Jews have been living in that part of the world?


You're well-aware that israel is, in fact, a nation that was created anew in the aftermath of WWII.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

Just curious, but how long do you think Jews have been living in that part of the world?


You're well-aware that israel is, in fact, a nation that was created anew in the aftermath of WWII.


Not to mention that the only reason that there is an Israel is because the Arabs helped the English defeat the Ottoman's. Based on the one condition that there would be no Jewish settlements in the "holy land"
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

Just curious, but how long do you think Jews have been living in that part of the world?

You're well-aware that israel is, in fact, a nation that was created anew in the aftermath of WWII.

Yes, I'm aware that it AND present-day Palestine were parcelled up from British-held territory at that time, but that wasn't what I asked. What I asked was how long do you think Jews have been living in that part of the world? The reason I asked it was because I seemed to be being asked to presume that Palestinian Arabs had a greater right to claim a homeland there based on having been there first. I thought it important to ensure that we all knew that it wasn't really that simple. Jews and Arabs both lived in that area historically, and to argue that this fact supports giving one group a nation there but does not support it for the other does not seem a logical argument and frankly smacks of racism to me.
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler. A very interesting book by a Jewish author about Jewish history.

Forbid the day Indigenous Americans leave the reservations and ask for their right to exist as a separate independent country in America and demand the amonut of land they want to lay claim.

I wonder would some tunes change?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
thelast007 wrote:
The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler. A very interesting book by a Jewish author about Jewish history.

Forbid the day Indigenous Americans leave the reservations and ask for their right to exist as a separate independent country in America and demand the amonut of land they want to lay claim.

I wonder would some tunes change?

I'm from upstate NY. You should look into what's been happening up there for the last 10-20 years. It might surprise you. And no, it hasn't changed my tune at all.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
Let me ask you this... are the people of Israel any less entitled to a land of their own than the people of Palestine?


In a sense of 'they were there first', the answer is yes.

Just curious, but how long do you think Jews have been living in that part of the world?


yea jews and arabs have been living there basically forever, but after the destruction of the temple and the jewish diaspora, the jews were in the minority everywhere they lived, including today in palestine.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
Let me ask you this... are the people of Israel any less entitled to a land of their own than the people of Palestine?


yes. the people of israel deserve no land of their own if in order to have it, them a minority must violently oppress a majority and deny them basic human rights.

Quote:
And this... did Israel refuse to accept Palestine in 1948 and attack Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq; or was it the other way around?


do you forget that it was israel that provoked the violence? no one had a problem until israel began massacring palestinians and burning their villages.

Quote:
Also... did Israel have a right to defend itself, once attacked?


israel initiated the violence...they attacked first

Quote:
Did the have a right to continue to do so, each time they were attacked over the years?


if they would change their policies and put an end to the illegal occupation of palestine, they would not be getting attacked.

not to mention that israel is always on the attack and the numbers of people killed by israel vs. the number of people killed by palestinians is extremely disproportionate.

Quote:
Oh, and... having beaten back those attacks, did they have a right to hold onto the territory they had won, which had been used to launch attacks against them?


no...they are in violation of international agreements that decided the boarders after israel's last major land grabbing victory.
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
And no, it hasn't changed my tune at all.


That's very nobel of you. A lot of people change tune when it comes to their own home.

I'll look into the NY thing.

TrespassersW wrote:

Oh, and... having beaten back those attacks, did they have a right to hold onto the territory they had won, which had been used to launch attacks against them?


so when you fight back attackers on their land you get to claim the attacker's land as your own if you win.

wow. very interesting. i learn something new everyday.

if Israel won a civil war with the world accepting that understanding would Isreal would win ALL the land?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
And this... did Israel refuse to accept Palestine in 1948 and attack Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq; or was it the other way around?

do you forget that it was israel that provoked the violence? no one had a problem until israel began massacring palestinians and burning their villages.

I assume you can cite a source that supports this claim? Here's a good outline of the events as I understand them...

Quote:
In 1922 the British separated Palestine into two territories: land east of the Jordan River became the Emirate of Transjordan (now Jordan); land to the west, from Lebanon and Syria in the north to Egypt in the south, remained Palestine. It was in this limited territory that Zionists clashed with Palestinian Arab nationalists. Both Jews and Arabs conducted terrorist attacks and intermittent, low-level warfare. Both groups resisted the British, particularly when a British policy was believed to benefit one side over the other. The struggle was reflected in political efforts to control land, institutions, and the economy.

Initially, Britain took several steps to aid the Arab side. For example, before World War II (1939-1945) the British did not allow large numbers of Jews to come to Palestine from Europe, where they were often persecuted. Nonetheless, Zionists gradually gained the upper hand through steady land purchases, slow but continual immigration, and community organization. After World War II the world became aware of the murder of millions of Jews in the Holocaust, and opinion began to favor creating an independent Jewish state. Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere continued to resist the idea, but on November 29, 1947, the United Nations (UN) passed Resolution 181, which called for a partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Jews accepted the resolution, but the Arabs opposed it. On May 14, 1948, the British mandate was terminated and at midnight the Jewish state of Israel declared its independence. The new state came under immediate attack from the Palestinian population and Arabs of the surrounding countries, including Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclo.....flict.html

According to every source I've found, Israel was attacked for simply being, not in retaliation for any actions they'd taken. But perhaps you know something I don't???
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I assume you can cite a source that supports this claim? Here's a good outline of the events as I understand them...


yes...i just tried to do a quick check and there is nothing that i found that specifically details what the israelis did. i took a course called terrorism and counter-terrorism and my text book cited this occurrence as well as two documentaries we were shown. it was stressed that israel was the first to use terrorism. i never had heard of this until then and i can assure you that my teacher was a right winged GOP guy who threatened to kick me out of his class for talking about the conflict that was going on in lebanon at the time.

i will get back to as soon as i remember where i stored my book.

it is in this book:

http://product.half.ebay.com/T.....rZ45871771
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
Quote:
I assume you can cite a source that supports this claim? Here's a good outline of the events as I understand them...


yes...i just tried to do a quick check and there is nothing that i found that specifically details what the israelis did. i took a course called terrorism and counter-terrorism and my text book cited this occurrence as well as two documentaries we were shown. it was stressed that israel was the first to use terrorism. i never had heard of this until then and i can assure you that my teacher was a right winged GOP guy who threatened to kick me out of his class for talking about the conflict that was going on in lebanon at the time.

i will get back to as soon as i remember where i stored my book.

it is in this book:

http://product.half.ebay.com/T.....rZ45871771

I did some more digging and found this link:
http://www.representativepress.....story.html
It offers information that backs up your statements, but I have no way to judge whether the statements made there or by the sources it cites are true. It does at least lend credence to your belief that these facts are true, and forces me to consider the real possibility that my understanding of the beginnings of this conflict are flawed and incomplete.

If this information is true, it certainly seems that we should not have supported Israel at that time and under those circumstances. Unfortunately, our government tends too often to take the side that suits our needs rather than taking the morally correct stance. (This is why I would prefer a US foreign policy that left other nations' affairs to those nations.)

THANKS for an interesting and useful discussion!
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have written negatively here in the past about the "Zionists". That does not mean that I do not support the average citizen in Israel. The problem is because there are people who don't want there to be peace. Just think of all the assasinations on the Israeli "Peace Brokers" over history. Sadat, Rabin, and countless others. And in most cases, the assasins were Jewish. It is right-wing, it is shameful

If they just go back to the 1967 borders and split the Sinai, they can live in peace. It says in the Oslo Accord that Jeruselum is to be negotiated. That will happen when the "Old Guard" start dying off, and only then. They are getting up there in the years.The ones who fought in the Six Day War.
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Raibeart
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
jusdeadphunky wrote:
Quote:
I assume you can cite a source that supports this claim? Here's a good outline of the events as I understand them...


yes...i just tried to do a quick check and there is nothing that i found that specifically details what the israelis did. i took a course called terrorism and counter-terrorism and my text book cited this occurrence as well as two documentaries we were shown. it was stressed that israel was the first to use terrorism. i never had heard of this until then and i can assure you that my teacher was a right winged GOP guy who threatened to kick me out of his class for talking about the conflict that was going on in lebanon at the time.

i will get back to as soon as i remember where i stored my book.

it is in this book:

http://product.half.ebay.com/T.....rZ45871771

I did some more digging and found this link:
http://www.representativepress.....story.html
It offers information that backs up your statements, but I have no way to judge whether the statements made there or by the sources it cites are true. It does at least lend credence to your belief that these facts are true, and forces me to consider the real possibility that my understanding of the beginnings of this conflict are flawed and incomplete.

If this information is true, it certainly seems that we should not have supported Israel at that time and under those circumstances. Unfortunately, our government tends too often to take the side that suits our needs rather than taking the morally correct stance. (This is why I would prefer a US foreign policy that left other nations' affairs to those nations.)

THANKS for an interesting and useful discussion!


Here you go TrespassersW.
http://www.palestine-encyclope.....4_1of2.htm
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