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Wave bye bye to sovereignty......
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
And the populist movement is sensible even today.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:

They seemed sensible at the time


The severely injured and recently incarcerated often think the same thing. ("It seemed like a good idea at the time...")
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
And the populist movement is sensible even today.


The populist movement = ?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
we are looking out for the interest of the U.S. while you are looking to the interest of the world.
that's very noble of you. but is it utopian?

and what perfect and model government do we have that is so great we are ready to duplicate it and impose it on the entire Earth?

what is the people of the world's opinion?
Good or bad why not let them decide? unless you are on board with exton on the intelligence of the people. (it is important to note many intelligent people oppose the idea.)

"fools rush in where angels fear to tread".


Basically if you look out for the interest of the world fully and truly and thats all you do, it's got to be utopian.

Yes, I think people are stupid, I don't think it's their fault, but I think they are, stupid, or apathetic, or misinformed, it's just the system that they propagate.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
And the populist movement is sensible even today.


exton wrote:
The populist movement = ?


pop·u·lism n.

1. A political philosophy supporting the rights and power of the people in their struggle against the privileged elite.
2. The movement organized around this philosophy.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah. In that case, i wouldn't say it's sensible or nonsensible. It depends entirely on the context in which the movement is taking place. And even if the philosophy of the movement is just, the movement itself can be nonsensible.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Ah. In that case, i wouldn't say it's sensible or nonsensible. It depends entirely on the context in which the movement is taking place. And even if the philosophy of the movement is just, the movement itself can be nonsensible.


One of their platforms was States Rights and very little Government involvement.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In which case iw ouldn't call it sensible.
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
thelast007 wrote:

exton wrote:
Basically, i'm of the mind that it's the right course of action, with or without the agreement of the electorate.


Whoa!


The right course of action is the right course of action, regardless of what a random mass of people happens to think about it.


yeah that's true. I'm curious to know is if you think their right to actually vote and be the decision maker should be taken away even when they are knowingly about to vote for "the wrong course of action"?

exton wrote:
thelast007 wrote:

what is the people of the world's opinion?
Good or bad why not let them decide? unless you are on board with exton on the intelligence of the people. (it is important to note many intelligent people oppose the idea.)


Many intelligent people oppose good ideas, and many intelligent people embrace stupid ones. Being intelligent doesn't make a person immune to coming to stupid conclusions. And, in some ways, it makes it harder for a person to brake out of stupid mindsets.


I agree with you on that one whole heartedly. i just added that as a side note becasue your stance pertained to the intelligence of the people as a reason why they should not be able to decide.

i'm curious as to what Lester's ideas might be as to why people should not be given a chance to decide. or if he had the citizen's intelligence issue as well.

i'm just curious to know the different reasons out there.
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
American sensibility kicking in...

#1 the civil rights movement.

the government believed separate but equal. the America's sensible people knew otherwise was right

#2 the abolitionist movement

The government wanted slavery. America's sensible knew otherwise was right

#3 women's suffrage movement

The government thought women should not vote. America's sensible people knew otherwise.

#4 end prohibition movement

The government wanted alcohol to be illegal. America's sensible people wanted choice

#5 the labor movement

the movement felt workers' rights, such as the 2-day weekend, minimum wage, paid holidays, and the achievement of the eight-hour day for many workers was too accommodating. America's sensible people knew what was right.

#6 environmental movement

The government wanted to ignore the hole in the ozone layer, stream flows, endangered species. Sensible Americans knew it was wrong to ignore.

#7 vietnam anti-war movement

we'd still be in vietname today as we are in Germany and Korea. America's sensible people knew wha twas right.

#8 Women's Liberation Movement

The government did't want women in the army nor were they willing to be too accommodating with work and pregnancy. America's sensible people knew better.

if it were not for american sensibility kicking in we all be burning to death from a huge hole in the ozone as a slave nation or separate but equal nation working 12 hour days with the women unable to vote while we are all at war with vietnam for 48th year and still not leaglly allowed to have a drink in the face of it all.

In all the above movements the members were seen as dissenters. the sensible are always seen as insensible nuts until time proves them to be sensible and the once sensible to be the real insensible nuts. Everyone should ask themselves this question. When time comes and proves the real sensible which side will you be on? The sensible or the nuts?
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
thelast007 wrote:
American sensibility kicking in...

#1 the civil rights movement.

the government believed separate but equal. the America's sensible people knew otherwise was right

#2 the abolitionist movement

The government wanted slavery. America's sensible knew otherwise was right

#3 women's suffrage movement

The government thought women should not vote. America's sensible people knew otherwise.

#4 end prohibition movement

The government wanted alcohol to be illegal. America's sensible people wanted choice

#5 the labor movement

the movement felt workers' rights, such as the 2-day weekend, minimum wage, paid holidays, and the achievement of the eight-hour day for many workers was too accommodating. America's sensible people knew what was right.

#6 environmental movement

The government wanted to ignore the hole in the ozone layer, stream flows, endangered species. Sensible Americans knew it was wrong to ignore.

#7 vietnam anti-war movement

we'd still be in vietname today as we are in Germany and Korea. America's sensible people knew wha twas right.

#8 Women's Liberation Movement

The government did't want women in the army nor were they willing to be too accommodating with work and pregnancy. America's sensible people knew better.

if it were not for american sensibility kicking in we all be burning to death from a huge hole in the ozone as a slave nation or separate but equal nation working 12 hour days with the women unable to vote while we are all at war with vietnam for 48th year and still not leaglly allowed to have a drink in the face of it all.

In all the above movements the members were seen as dissenters. the sensible are always seen as insensible nuts until time proves them to be sensible and the once sensible to be the real insensible nuts. Everyone should ask themselves this question. When time comes and proves the real sensible which side will you be on? The sensible or the nuts?


Couldn't have said it better, myself.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not all of the american agreed with any of those things.
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Not all of the american agreed with any of those things.


That is point.

They began as the small minority nutty far left liberals fighting against the government and the population's love of the status quo. people finally saw the light and they are now clearly the sensible.

the america's sensible kicked in to save or free the counrty, specifically government policy, from the jail of ignorance.

and america's sensible kicks in from both liberal and conservative America. i can't think of any too many far right conservative issues becasue they are usually closer to government policy but one example is welfare reform. even clinton finally saw the light and made it happen.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
thelast007 wrote:
American sensibility kicking in...


I think i'd agree with you that those were sensible moments.

But i find it...interesting...that you frame those things in your mind as a struggle between people and the government.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
thelast007 wrote:

yeah that's true. I'm curious to know is if you think their right to actually vote and be the decision maker should be taken away even when they are knowingly about to vote for "the wrong course of action"?


I think that depends on the situation in question.

In terms of effectiveness, a benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.

In terms of long-term stability, a representative democracy seems to work. Work better, anyway.

I don't see it as a matter of finding a system that works in all situations, because, quite frankly, i can't think of one. Instead, i think of it as trying to minimize the damage that people can do to civilization.
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