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Virindi
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Wars caused by atheists. Reply with quote
I've been doing my research, haven't found any so far.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, but i think that's ignoring the point.

I'd say religion is bad, but the fact that religion is bad has nothing to do with the number of religious people who are sadistic megalomaniacs.

Belligerant war-mongerers are the way that they are with or without religion, in most cases. Religion is bad for different reasons.

Similarly, the relative lack of psychotic atheists speaks nothing of the soundness of atheism itself.
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Virindi
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:

Belligerant war-mongerers are the way that they are with or without religion, in most cases. Religion is bad for different reasons.


When practically every war-monger ever has waged war or rallied support through to religious affiliation, how is that not a reason for religion being bad?

Quote:

Similarly, the relative lack of psychotic atheists speaks nothing of the soundness of atheism itself.


Can you clarify?
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Virindi wrote:

When practically every war-monger ever has waged war or rallied support through to religious affiliation, how is that not a reason for religion being bad?


Because religion isn't the true cause of most wars; it's just a convenient excuse. Wars are, ultimately, economically motivated, not religiously motivated.

Quote:

Quote:

Similarly, the relative lack of psychotic atheists speaks nothing of the soundness of atheism itself.

Can you clarify?


Well, even if there were atheists who like to rape and pillage and eat babies, that doesn't mean that atheism is any less correct, or any less good. People rape and pillage and eat babies regardless of their religion - it is other factors that influence people to do evil things.

Of course, there are many cases in which the psychotic and delusional are fervently religious, but the reason for that is clear - they're psychotic and delusional. The psychosis and delusions are the cause of both the antisocial or violent behavior AND of the religious beliefs; the religious beliefs themselves are not the cause of anything.
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CryxicKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wars have no "ultimate" motivations. Each and every one must be understood within its particular historical context and with its own set of facts and issues. Some wars were fought primarily because of natural resources, others primarily because of religious motivations, others primarily because of pride or jealousy, and others for a variety of other reasons. Trying to pinpoint a foundational cause for why humans fight is a hopeless adventure, and this is directed both at Virindi and exton.

"I've been doing my research, haven't found any so far."

....are you kidding? I'm tempted to call this statement so many names right now. Atheists have started many wars throughout history; for a quick glance just look at the history of the Soviet Union, whose atheist leaders started (not a complete list) the Russo-Polish War, the Winter War, and ruthlessly invaded Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan to name a few countries. I'm not quite sure what inspired this thread, but it cannot have been something too lucid or carefully planned.
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Virindi
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Wars have no "ultimate" motivations.


I don't think I made that conclusion, sorry if somehow I gave you that implication.

Quote:

....are you kidding? I'm tempted to call this statement so many names right now. Atheists have started many wars throughout history; for a quick glance just look at the history of the Soviet Union, whose atheist leaders started (not a complete list) the Russo-Polish War, the Winter War, and ruthlessly invaded Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan to name a few countries. I'm not quite sure what inspired this thread, but it cannot have been something too lucid or carefully planned.


The great thing about asking a question is that they can be answered, no matter how immature or hostile the person answering them may be.

Thanks for answering my question.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
CryxicKiller wrote:
Wars have no "ultimate" motivations. Each and every one must be understood within its particular historical context and with its own set of facts and issues. Some wars were fought primarily because of natural resources, others primarily because of religious motivations, others primarily because of pride or jealousy, and others for a variety of other reasons.


Motivation was the wrong word; i meant "cause".
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
CryxicKiller wrote:
Wars have no "ultimate" motivations. Each and every one must be understood within its particular historical context and with its own set of facts and issues. Some wars were fought primarily because of natural resources, others primarily because of religious motivations, others primarily because of pride or jealousy, and others for a variety of other reasons.


Motivation was the wrong word; i meant "cause".
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grassrooter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Of course you can argue "No good (Christian | Muslim | Jew | Buddhist | Hindu) would ever start a war, because it's against the teachings." However, most holy texts contain (pretty blatant, at times) calls to war. I would say that yes, religion has been used to justify expansionist goals, but religion has also been propagated for that reason.

The reason organized religion is so popular is because it's a great tool to garner mass support (and funding) for wars. Emperor Constantine, the first Christian emperor, was a great example. New religion, new reason for "spreading the word". Plenty of examples in Islam, and other religions.

Crusades were called by the pope, the head of Catholicism. To call them not religiously motivated means you're saying that the entire leadership of the church was not religiously motivated in their actions. I agree, but I hardly think it's a better situation.

Religion was popular with nobility (and hence with governments, without whose support conversion wouldn't have been possible) because it provided a good way to rob people of their conscience.

On the other hand, I disagree that atheists have not caused wars. The hot wars during the cold war were all effectively atheist wars, for example. There haven't been many declared atheist leaders, so that's what makes it hard to name names. Religion isn't the cause of all wars and evils, just one additional excuse for bad nasty people.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Yes, but i think that's ignoring the point.

I'd say religion is bad, but the fact that religion is bad has nothing to do with the number of religious people who are sadistic megalomaniacs.

Belligerant war-mongerers are the way that they are with or without religion, in most cases. Religion is bad for different reasons.

Similarly, the relative lack of psychotic atheists speaks nothing of the soundness of atheism itself.


Yeah, but those war mongers often use religion as a means of action or justification. Even if they don't really follow it religiously.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Docsmitter wrote:

Yeah, but those war mongers often use religion as a means of action or justification. Even if they don't really follow it religiously.


What i'm saying is that that isn't really the causal factor. Religious fervor alone is almost never enough to whip up a whole civilization into arms. There are other, more important factors.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Docsmitter wrote:

Yeah, but those war mongers often use religion as a means of action or justification. Even if they don't really follow it religiously.


What i'm saying is that that isn't really the causal factor. Religious fervor alone is almost never enough to whip up a whole civilization into arms. There are other, more important factors.


But you can manipulate religion enough that it gets enough of the populace along that you almost get a mob psycology.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Docsmitter wrote:

But you can manipulate religion enough that it gets enough of the populace along that you almost get a mob psycology.


Oh certainly. But that's not unique to religion. When i say religion is a bad thing, i mean exactly and exclusively the belief in the supernatural. Religion as a social institution is a different matter.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Docsmitter wrote:

But you can manipulate religion enough that it gets enough of the populace along that you almost get a mob psycology.


Oh certainly. But that's not unique to religion. When i say religion is a bad thing, i mean exactly and exclusively the belief in the supernatural. Religion as a social institution is a different matter.


I find religion oppressive. I hated sunday school, I was kicked out for disagreeing and arguing.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Docsmitter wrote:

I find religion oppressive. I hated sunday school, I was kicked out for disagreeing and arguing.


I suppose it could be when you're a child. As an adult, though, it can only oppress you if you let it. And then, is it really oppression if you allow it?
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