Register :: Log in :: Profile :: Mail   
the constitution party-party of the founders

Home // Other Parties



Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
Xerxes
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 1564
Location: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Xerxes wrote:

When the shit hits the fan, it always goes back to the gold standard! It is one of those immovable objects that spans millennia.


Do you know what currency is, and why we use it? Do you know why gold was ever used as a currency?

Quote:

"Fiat" currency is evil, it has been tried before, only to ultimately fail. Fiat is what has funded our aggressions around the world(black budget)and allows the Fed. to crank out new money like sausages.


That's right, the fed can crank out all they want.

But they actually don't. Do you know why?

Quote:

It's like me showing up at a poker game with no money, just a bunch of shiny things and trinkets, insisting that they are worth the same amount as your gold coins(an internationally accepted form of currency).......Wanna play some poker


Seriously...how much do you know about economics?


I have applied thought to your comments and they made me think. First off, I am by no means an economics wiz. I thought to myself, do I oppose not being on a gold standard because it is just some really cool, intriguing shit that I heard? Or, is is it something much more primal than that? I think that it is the latter.

Growing up as a kid, I remember having a bunch of "silver certificates". They were 1's,5's,10's,20's,50's & 100's. My grandparents always told me to be proud of those because you could always go to a Federal Reserve Bank and get the current equivalent in silver. That is where it starts for me; it started at the University of Grampa's Sound Economics. I am sure he aquired these skills during the Depression. It is later in life that I learned that this happens to be one of the last great legacies Jack Kennedy left us with. Possibly the one that killed him.

From The Final Call, Vol. 15, No.6, On January 17, 1996:
On June 4, 1963, a little known attempt was made to strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the government at interest. On that day President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order No. 11110 that returned to the U.S. government the power to issue currency, without going through the Federal Reserve. Mr. Kennedy's order gave the Treasury the power "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This meant that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation. In all, Kennedy brought nearly $4.3 billion in U.S. notes into circulation. The ramifications of this bill are enormous.

It is also interesting that for his thesis Alan Greenspan's topic was the evils of fiat currency. The Fed. has never been audited. The majority of stockholders in the Fed. are foreign, so for all we know, there could very possibly be no gold left in Ft. Knox. But we will never know for sure what they have done to our treasury, they are above being audited.

The Fiat standard is an illusion, our whole economic system is a sham, a lie and just as soon as China loses faith in our beloved dollar they will expect payment. And they will expect the debt to be paid back in the form of a precious metal, not some imaginary shit that we make up or crank out. China is unlike the small countries in the past who could not do a damn thing to us if we decided not to pay up.

Don't even get me started on the biblical implications, whether you are religious or not, myself a "Sitchinite" as in Zechariah Sitchin. It is a common story of Jesus turning over the tables of the "moneychangers" for tampering with "weights and measurements". Which is exactly what tampering with the value of an entire economic system is.

Yes, it is true, there is not enough gold on the planet to have as many billionares as we have all over the globe. Some people will be hurt if we ever go back, but that's ok....it would be just the right people getting hurt. We would have to go back to a simpler time, but that is fine by me, I like the idea of riding my horse to work.
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:

Growing up as a kid, I remember having a bunch of "silver certificates". They were 1's,5's,10's,20's,50's & 100's. My grandparents always told me to be proud of those because you could always go to a Federal Reserve Bank and get the current equivalent in silver. That is where it starts for me; it started at the University of Grampa's Sound Economics. I am sure he aquired these skills during the Depression. It is later in life that I learned that this happens to be one of the last great legacies Jack Kennedy left us with. Possibly the one that killed him.

From The Final Call, Vol. 15, No.6, On January 17, 1996:
On June 4, 1963, a little known attempt was made to strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the government at interest. On that day President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order No. 11110 that returned to the U.S. government the power to issue currency, without going through the Federal Reserve. Mr. Kennedy's order gave the Treasury the power "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This meant that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation. In all, Kennedy brought nearly $4.3 billion in U.S. notes into circulation. The ramifications of this bill are enormous.


Oh, everyone's got their pet theory on kennedy's assasination.

Truth is, we'll probably never know.

Quote:
The Fed. has never been audited. The majority of stockholders in the Fed. are foreign, so for all we know, there could very possibly be no gold left in Ft. Knox. But we will never know for sure what they have done to our treasury, they are above being audited.


Now, i may be mistaken, but i'm pretty sure that the fed is entirely separate from the treasury. The reserve is not the treasury - they're two different chunks of money.

Quote:

The Fiat standard is an illusion, our whole economic system is a sham, a lie


Yes, yes it is.
It is, however, a collective illusion. That's why it works.

Money isn't worth anything, in and of itself.
And you know what? Neither is gold. In and of itself, it's worthless. It's just an element. It comes from rocks and dirt.

Whether or not something is worth anything is entirely dependent on how much people want it.

That is why gold and silver were used as currency - everyone wants them. They're rare, and shiny, and pretty. So people used them as a means of exchange.

But that's really only a step up from bartering. Rather than trading two sheep for a bunch of logs, you agree with your friend that two sheep are worth the same as a gold coin, and a bunch of logs are worth a gold coin. So, if you want your friend's logs, you give him a gold coin, instead of carrying around sheep. And if he wants your sheep, he gives you a gold coin, instead of carrying around logs.

But fundamentally, you're trading sheep for logs. Or labor for sheep. Or logs for labor. Etc.

That's why we have money that is backed by nothing - because money is worth nothing. It's just a means of exchange; it encapsulates the relative values that goods and services have to each other. It's so that we don't have to carry around sheeps and logs, if we want to buy stuff.

Gold coins serve the same exact purpose. The big (and important) difference is that the supply of gold coins is dependent upon how much gold is in the ground. And thus, so would be our economy.

Our economy - which really is a collective illusion - being dependent upon the supply of a particular rock in the ground? Nonsense - gold has nothing to do with the economy. It's just a shiny rock.

Better to just admit the truth - money is worth nothing. And by supplying paper money, rather than gold coins, we can regulate the economy. And it won't collapse in a gold shortage.

Of course, eventually it'll get even more bizarre. We won't use paper money. We'll store numbers in plastic and silicon cards, and when we exchange goods and services, our cards will add and subtract numbers. Really, that's already how it's done. It's just slowly filtering down to the consumer.

Quote:

and just as soon as China loses faith in our beloved dollar they will expect payment. And they will expect the debt to be paid back in the form of a precious metal, not some imaginary shit that we make up or crank out. China is unlike the small countries in the past who could not do a damn thing to us if we decided not to pay up.


Haha, china isn't going to demand gold. They won't demand anything, not for a while.

If they want their money back, we can actually pay them back, over some time. Or we can default. And there's nothing they can do about it. They bought our debt because of their confidence in our economy, and they're aware of the risks involved.

Plus, what are they going to do? Oh, sure, they could nuke us. And we could nuke them. But then civilization would be over, and that would defeat the point of getting paid up wouldn't it?

Plus, china doesn't own the most of our debt. Japan owns more.

Quote:

Don't even get me started on the biblical implications, whether you are religious or not, myself a "Sitchinite" as in Zechariah Sitchin. It is a common story of Jesus turning over the tables of the "moneychangers" for tampering with "weights and measurements". Which is exactly what tampering with the value of an entire economic system is.


I'm an atheist. So yeah, biblical implications are meaningless as far as i'm concerned.

Quote:

Yes, it is true, there is not enough gold on the planet to have as many billionares as we have all over the globe. Some people will be hurt if we ever go back, but that's ok....it would be just the right people getting hurt. We would have to go back to a simpler time, but that is fine by me, I like the idea of riding my horse to work.


There's no going back.
Back to top
Xerxes
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 1564
Location: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
There's no going back.


I'm glad you agree with me. LoL
Back to top
ringwormbettie
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Holy Shit! These guys are against everything I stand for. (Pretty much) Jesus!
Back to top
TrespassersW
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 988
Location: North Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

That would put me at odds with him on that one issue. Of course, I would consider his positions on other issues on their own merits. Would you do otherwise?

Yes. The gold standard is a show-stopper. The isn't like how much to raise or lower income tax, or whether we should buy more or less weapons, or whatever. This is serious, fundamental-level stuff. This is the sort of thing that can seriously damage our civilization. I can not think of anything he could think or say that would outweigh the negativity of supporting the gold standard.

Well, the only thing I know the guy's name for is sponsoring the Enumerated Powers Act, which I support. I've never before heard of him championing a return to a gold standard for US currency, but having Googled it quickly, it appears that Alan Greenspan once made similar arguments in favor of a gold standard, and it would be hard to argue that Greenspan doesn't understand economics.

Quote:
“The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit… In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value… Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the ‘hidden’ confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists’ antagonism toward the gold standard.”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul236.html
Back to top
IrishOutlaw
Newbie


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is a good page about the gold standard. Most people that are opposed to it don't understand that it isn't about gold as much is it is about an economic philosophy. If you get pictures of piles of gold in your mind, your missing the whole point of a return to the gold standard. Anyway, if you are interested this site is good.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/edit.....11897.html
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

it appears that Alan Greenspan once made similar arguments in favor of a gold standard, and it would be hard to argue that Greenspan doesn't understand economics.


If alan greenspan really thinks that the gold standard is a good idea, then i would question his competance as well.

Authority does not qualify as evidence of anything.
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
IrishOutlaw wrote:
it isn't about gold as much is it is about an economic philosophy.


Yes, i know that.

And it's fundamentally stupid.
Back to top
TrespassersW
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 988
Location: North Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

it appears that Alan Greenspan once made similar arguments in favor of a gold standard, and it would be hard to argue that Greenspan doesn't understand economics.

If alan greenspan really thinks that the gold standard is a good idea, then i would question his competance as well.

Authority does not qualify as evidence of anything.

Authority absent anything else, certainly not. Authority backed by a long-term track record... ???
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
Authority backed by a long-term track record... ???


...a long term track record of applying the gold standard? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have one of those.
Back to top
TrespassersW
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 988
Location: North Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
Authority backed by a long-term track record... ???

...a long term track record of applying the gold standard? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have one of those.

Is that what you meant when you called Greenspan an authority? If it is, that's not what I meant; I simply pointed out that you can discount his standing easily enough, but it is a bit harder to discount his work over the years.
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:

...a long term track record of applying the gold standard? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have one of those.

Is that what you meant when you called Greenspan an authority? If it is, that's not what I meant; I simply pointed out that you can discount his standing easily enough, but it is a bit harder to discount his work over the years.


I consider his track record to be just as relevent as his status as an authority figure. That is to say, not at all relevent.

Now, if he had used the gold standard, and it worked really, really well, that would be something. But doing well on economic work that does not show the efficacy of the gold standard does not in any way enhance the validity of his opinion on such, in my mind. It's the same matter as authority; just because a smart man says something is true does not mean that it's true, and just because a succesful man says somethign is true does not mean that it is true.
Back to top
thelast007
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 525

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton i finally agree with you on something. going back to the gold standard would not be as beneficial as many think at all.

(the the problem lies in how and where "what ever the standard" goes and is used in the monetary system)
Back to top
IrishOutlaw
Newbie


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
IrishOutlaw wrote:
it isn't about gold as much is it is about an economic philosophy.


Yes, i know that.

And it's fundamentally stupid.


So you think it is stupid that there be a worldwide standard for valuation of money?

How much yen do you get for a dollar? How about how many Euros? How many pesos? We don't even know what the strenghts of any of those are from day to day.

Tell me what it is about a return to the gold standard that you think is stupid please.
Back to top
TrespassersW
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 988
Location: North Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
I consider his track record to be just as relevent as his status as an authority figure. That is to say, not at all relevent.

That you consider Greenspan's history as an economist and track record as head of the fed not at all relevant in weighing his opinion on economic issues forces me to discount your opinion on such issues. I might differ with Greenspan on some things, but that doesn't mean I blithely ignore his credentials.
Back to top


Post new topic   Reply to topic   Quick Reply    LVC Home // Other Parties All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 2 of 9

 

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Add to My Yahoo! Add to Google

Politics Blogs - Blog Top Sites Politics Blogs Politics
Politics blogs Politics blogs Article Directory Political Blogs - BlogCatalog Blog Directory Top Blog Sites
My Big Breasts