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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think your methods may be slightly off, try these.

A) Aim for a car that has zero or negligible air resistance. The prototype will approach the problem from a different direction than others have, one that theoretically can work within the limits of reality.

or

B) Aim for a car that is more aerodynamic than cars that have come before it. The prototype will only improve on what has come before it, it won't be perfect, but it might be a little bit better.

You can keep doing B over and over again, but it always works under the assumption that there will be significant air resistance, those of us who subscribe to the A thinking realize that this has doomed your project to imperfection from the very beginning.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
You can keep doing B over and over again, but it always works under the assumption that there will be significant air resistance, those of us who subscribe to the A thinking realize that this has doomed your project to imperfection from the very beginning.

Thank you for making my point beautifully! Your insistence that communism would work if we just change the nature of man and the world so that it will is exactly akin to suggesting that we can build the perfect aerodynamic car by first rejecting the reality that air presents (and always will) an inherent resistance to objects moving through it.

You make this easy. Cool
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you read the A bit, I was talking about a car with zero *or* negligible air resistance. You are right in one respect though, we would have to change the nature of man, but hey, we've done it before, why shouldn't we be able to do it again? As for changing the world, thats what any technology does, fixes the worlds rules so that they perform functions that suit us.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man has changed incrementally over time in response to various forces (for lack of a better term), not suddenly and because someone thought it was a good idea. And as much as he has changed, he remains driven most by a sense of what is good for him, and he does the most for others when serving that self-interest, however enlightened it may be.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am not expecting someone to wave a magic wand and make it all better, I'm expecting people to work hard for the betterment of society.

Why would people do that? Well I'd like to think that everyone was motivated out of the goodness of their hearts, but I doubt it, what I do not doubt is mans obsession with self, the problem is, it is not intelligent self-interest. Intelligent self-interest can see that what is best for society as a whole is best for him also, there is a possibility you can rise to the top in capitalism, but in communism there is neither top nor bottom, everyone works as hard as they possibly can, and as a result of this, *everyone* gets to a position enjoyed by a rare few in this world, and not only that, but even Bill Gates can go bankrupt in the current system, not so with communism.

If no-one makes decisions that place people in difficult positions, no-one has to be faced with those positions.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I like you, Lester, but you are quite mad. Wink
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some people never go crazy.
What truly horrible lives they must lead. - Charles Bukowski
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
"I yam what I yam." - Popeye
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm a 'why not' kind of a guy, your more of a 'why' man I'm guessing, well, mebbe not even that, perhaps a 'how' person.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
When dealing with lives and liberty, I'd rather do things that are likely to work--to improve people's lives--than things that are likely to fail and make people's lives worse.

That's the kind of guy I am. Cool
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Improved lives are not perfect lives, you've accepted defeat before you've even hit the field.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry Lester, but you're talking in meaningless nuspeak. You advocate leaping to a state of perfection, while I'm advocating working to improve lives incrementally. My way has been shown throughout human history to be the way things work. Yours works in poorly considered texts and the minds of the naive. It isn't enough to know where you want to end up, you have to know which direction to go, which landmarks to look for... you have to make the journey by placing one foot in front of the other, not by simply wishing you were already there.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
But yours hasn't worked! Not if the end goal is to reach perfection anyways.

Mine works hypothetically, on paper, all that is required is a convincing enough spokesman with half a brain, basically Lenin, again, this time without the heart attack.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
Lester wrote:
I don't see whats so wrong with wanting utopia.

There's nothing wrong with wanting it; there is a lot wrong with implementing failed ideas and thinking that sooner or later they will work. There's something wrong with destroying the individual in the name of the people. There's something wrong with government telling people what they should desire, what they must do, and what they can have.

No, there's nothing wrong with wanting utopia, but there's everything wrong with thinking we will find it in communism.


The communism that Marx wrote of was not exactly what it became. He did not take into account the human greed factor that ultimately killed it. It was not Ronald Reagan. No form of government has proven itself to be workable. Outside of tribalism. Unlike the western tribes, the Algonquin Indian tribe actually had a democracy of sorts long before we even landed here. There was individual accountability and diplomacy among other Indian nations. They decided that warring with other Indian nations was counterproductive. Then we came here and slaughtered them.

What does this have to do with indians?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
He's saying tirbalism is the only workable government system.
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