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So what if Iran wants to attack Israel

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Spartacus
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Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Awhile back I was watching Hannity and Colmes and they had the former Prime Minister of Israel on and somebody asked "if you were still PM what would you do" and this asshole goes "I would go to the United States and say this is your responsibility to deal with". Not surprisingly both Hannity and Colmes sat there like retards and didn't challenge him on it but I'm thinking "responsibility? A good samaritan's inclinition maybe, but responsibility? WTF". It's not our responsibility or even right to police the world so what is this idiot talking about?

Anyway, the Iran rhetoric has toned down (ever since that little piece of news about Iran not being as dangerous as Bush and his cronies made them out to be) but it use to INFURIATE me when Republicans would jump up and down about how we had to defend Israel (as if we needed a third war Rolling Eyes). Why? Not only do they probaly have their own nukes but they've had to fight off enemies since they were concocted. They can handle themselves.
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Vinces
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Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Exton,
I don't think its the apocolypse that christians look forward to. I am a christian and I would look forward to a rapture and the 2nd coming of my saviour.

I confess that if I was not a christian I would not like my elected officials basing foreign policy on christian beliefs.

I might be tempted to say well, why should we pick the Israelis to stick up for? I mean there are alot of people that could use our help more than they do. What's the worst that could happen? They get annhilated by their enemies. It was bound to happen sooner or later, nobody likes them. We take grief from everyone around the globe for being their friend and it's not like we depend on them for anything. I mean what do we get out of the relationship besides stress.

But I am a christian and I do think we should help them. Not because I am considering there could be an immenent apocolypse but because I don't want to see anyone get wiped off the map. I don't want anyone to forget or deny the holocaust either else we encounter it all over again.
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vinces wrote:

But I am a christian and I do think we should help them. Not because I am considering there could be an immenent apocolypse but because I don't want to see anyone get wiped off the map. I don't want anyone to forget or deny the holocaust either else we encounter it all over again.


I, too, support the continued existence of israel.

But that's not the same as supporting anything that the israeli government does, and it's not same as promoting warfare on the alleged behalf of israel.
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Vinces
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Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Which leads us to the question, what if what they want to do is preemptively strike Iran?

Do we offer help?

Best case: We save Tel Aviv from nuclear disaster, and Iran backs down.
Worst case: Everyone in the world besides Israel hates us, and we start WW3 and a huge worldwide economic depression.

Do not support a preemptive strike?

Best case: Iran is telling the truth and has no nuclear weapons program and does not attack.
Worst case: Israel backs down and Tel Aviv is nuked, causing WW3 and a huge worldwide economic depression.
(but what's left of Israel has international support now :))

I'm sure there are other scenarios but what I'm getting at is the potential stakes are high. We want to avoid WW3 and a nuclear attack on Israel. (I know maybe not all of us just the sane ones) If we make the wrong decision it could literally ruin life on Earth for awhile. Just because we want a best case scenario does not make it realistic either. Let's hope cooler heads prevail in the end, if their are any.
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Best case: We save Tel Aviv from nuclear disaster, and Iran backs down.
Worst case: Everyone in the world besides Israel hates us, and we start WW3 and a huge worldwide economic depression.


Where are these cases coming from?

Quote:
Do not support a preemptive strike?


We saw how well preemptive strikes have worked. We're STILL in Iraq, and we're going to have to move forces back to Afghanistan. We don't have the resources and body count to do this unless you reinstitute the draft which will guarantee your party will never see the light of day in this country again. So if you want to commit political suicide or pressure your party to do so, be my guest.

Quote:
Worst case: Israel backs down and Tel Aviv is nuked, causing WW3 and a huge worldwide economic depression.


Where is this case coming from? The Iranians talk a lot of shit to just about everyone. The number of times they've acted on ANYTHING they've said recently? 0

You're basing things off of optimism again, apparently. I certainly don't see any information to back up what you're saying, just "well this is the best case so we should go with it".
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vinces wrote:
Which leads us to the question, what if what they want to do is preemptively strike Iran?

Do we offer help?


Not only do we not offer help, but we threaten to withdraw all support - monetary and otherwise - if they go through with it.

Quote:

Best case: We save Tel Aviv from nuclear disaster, and Iran backs down.


Whoa whoa, back up a minute. Iran backs down?

You said "what if what they want to do is preemptively strike Iran?"

Iran can't back down if they aren't the ones instigating the conflict! If israel is the nation that wants to start a fight, then they're the only party who can "back down" from anything.

Quote:

I'm sure there are other scenarios but what I'm getting at is the potential stakes are high. We want to avoid WW3 and a nuclear attack on Israel. (I know maybe not all of us just the sane ones) If we make the wrong decision it could literally ruin life on Earth for awhile. Just because we want a best case scenario does not make it realistic either.


The most realistic outlook on the matter right now is that Iran doesn't pose a threat to israel or anyone else; it makes absolutely no sense to wage war on them.
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Vinces
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Joined: 09 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Toxic,
I don't have a party and I don't remember saying I supported a preemptive strike? Talk about aggressive, relax a little toxic.

Exton,
by "back down" I mean, if they had a nuclear weapons program and it was destroyed the best case would be that they ceased to pursue it. It's a hypothetical situation, I'm not trying to predict the future.

Guys stay with me, I am saying there is a potential for bad things to happen either way we go. Unless your so certain Iran is all bark and no bite or you don't see Israel being nuked as a bad thing. Then I suppose no worries. One thing is for sure on the present course Iran will eventually have access to weapons grade materials. Maybe your all for that, I don't know. If I lived in Israel it would make me more than a little nervous.

You seem to be under the presumtion that only Israel or the US could start this war. I think your overlooking Ahmadinejad. He is way more wrapped up in his ultra conservative religous based end of the world beliefs than old W is.
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I don't have a party and I don't remember saying I supported a preemptive strike?


rofl. Sure thing.

Quote:
Guys stay with me, I am saying there is a potential for bad things to happen either way we go. Unless your so certain Iran is all bark and no bite or you don't see Israel being nuked as a bad thing.


Israel being nuked would be a terrible thing, but again, this leads back to the question of "why is this my problem?" If Israel can't keep its nose where it belongs, why should I or my country be the ones to worry so much about it?

Quote:
One thing is for sure on the present course Iran will eventually have access to weapons grade materials.


How is that "for sure"? That's been the whole problem with them not letting our inspectors in. We have no idea if they are attempting to get nukes or not. It's not as simple a process as "1) build buildings; 2) use buildings to make nukes; 3) have and use nukes" however.

Quote:
Maybe your all for that, I don't know.


I don't care one way or the other. I would prefer global nuclear disarmament but since I know that isn't going to happen, I can't say I blame nations for creating nukes to defend themselves, even if just for show. You don't always have to actually act to scare your enemies into complacency.

Quote:
If I lived in Israel it would make me more than a little nervous.


If I lived in Iran and knew that Israel has nukes, I'd be worried. But of course, what Iranians think doesn't matter, right?

Quote:
You seem to be under the presumtion that only Israel or the US could start this war.


Who in their right mind would think that? I know what Ahmadinejad is capable. However, I know even more, seeing as I'm from the place, what we're capable of. We don't have an administration that follows a policy of "think first, then act". Iran doesn't either, but they do have the Ayatollah, who thinks and decides about everything.

Quote:
He is way more wrapped up in his ultra conservative religous based end of the world beliefs than old W is.


They're both highly realistic men. Wink
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vinces wrote:

Guys stay with me, I am saying there is a potential for bad things to happen either way we go.


I agree. And what i'm saying is that, by far, the greatest potential for disaster lies in initiating a war with iran.

Quote:

Unless your so certain Iran is all bark and no bite


I'm pretty confident of that, yes.

Quote:

or you don't see Israel being nuked as a bad thing. Then I suppose no worries. One thing is for sure on the present course Iran will eventually have access to weapons grade materials.


Assuming that's true (i'm not sure that it is), why would that concern you? The iranians are fully aware that if they attack israel then they're in for a whole world of hurt.

Quote:

You seem to be under the presumtion that only Israel or the US could start this war.


I'm operating under the presumption that the only nations that want this war are israel and the united states.

Quote:

I think your overlooking Ahmadinejad. He is way more wrapped up in his ultra conservative religous based end of the world beliefs than old W is.


Ahmadinejad is an obnoxious blowhard who uses saber-rattling to try to gain clout in regional politics. There's no evidence to suggest that he's a beligerant religious fanatic or a raving lunatic.

And, in case you didn't know, ahmadinejad does not run iran.
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