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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
Nowhere in the constitution does it say that we are charged with the welfare of a sovereign nation.


You're right, it doesn't.

You know what else isn't in the constitution?

Math. And hotdogs.

But we work with those just fine.

The constitution outlines the form of the united states government, turk. It is not a guide for behavior and it does not dictate what decisions we as a society should make.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
The constitution outlines the form of the united states government, turk. It is not a guide for behavior and it does not dictate what decisions we as a society should make.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be to write that the Constitution defines the specific powers of our federal government, outlining quite specifically those things over which it is given power. One such is foreign policy, which would seem logically (under the reasonable and necessary clause) to include monetary or other aid to foreign nations.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:
The constitution outlines the form of the united states government, turk. It is not a guide for behavior and it does not dictate what decisions we as a society should make.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be to write that the Constitution defines the specific powers of our federal government, outlining quite specifically those things over which it is given power. One such is foreign policy, which would seem logically (under the reasonable and necessary clause) to include monetary or other aid to foreign nations.
You mean necessary and proper clause
an interventional foreign policy would not be necessary or proper
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Turk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Turk wrote:
Nowhere in the constitution does it say that we are charged with the welfare of a sovereign nation.


You're right, it doesn't.

You know what else isn't in the constitution?

Math. And hotdogs.

But we work with those just fine.

The constitution outlines the form of the united states government, turk. It is not a guide for behavior and it does not dictate what decisions we as a society should make.
The constitution was written to restrain the government
what does that tell you?
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Constitution was written as a guiding form for many aspects of our nation as a whole, which includes our government.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Toxic wrote:
The Constitution was written as a guiding form for many aspects of our nation as a whole, which includes our government.

A guiding form for who?


Last edited by Turk on Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
...

Wow.

http://www.constitutioncenter......tution.pdf

Please read that.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:
The constitution outlines the form of the united states government, turk. It is not a guide for behavior and it does not dictate what decisions we as a society should make.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be to write that the Constitution defines the specific powers of our federal government, outlining quite specifically those things over which it is given power. One such is foreign policy, which would seem logically (under the reasonable and necessary clause) to include monetary or other aid to foreign nations.
You mean necessary and proper clause

Yes, that's what I meant. Embarassed

Turk wrote:
an interventional foreign policy would not be necessary or proper

You mean "interventionist." Wink

The Constitution does not dictate the type of foreign policy the feds may choose, it merely cites foreign policy as one of the areas over which they have power. And of course, your argument really doesn't go to the point I made at all. I understand that you don't favor interventionist foreign policy; I'm not a big fan of it in many forms, but that has nothing to do with the question of whether the Constitution gives the feds power to distribute foreign aid. I believe it does, for the reason stated above.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

Perhaps a better way to put it would be to write that the Constitution defines the specific powers of our federal government,


Except it does more than that - it also specifies the general organization of the government, in addition to its duties and powers.

Hence, my use of the word "form".
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exton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:

an interventional foreign policy would not be necessary or proper


That just begs the question of purpose - you say it's not necessary or proper, but necessary or proper for what?
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exton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
The constitution was written to restrain the government


The constitution was written, in part, with the intent of limiting the scope of the government.

Like cookie said: foreign policy is well within the scope of what the constitution defines.

You may not LIKE interventionist foreign policy, and there are good grounds on which you can argue against it, but the constitution isn't one of them.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Turk wrote:
The constitution was written to restrain the government


The constitution was written, in part, with the intent of limiting the scope of the government.

Like cookie said: foreign policy is well within the scope of what the constitution defines.

You may not LIKE interventionist foreign policy, and there are good grounds on which you can argue against it, but the constitution isn't one of them.
Our foreign policy of preemptive conflicts is permitted by the constitution?
With out consent of the people congress and a declaration of war?
You need to get your facts straight
President entering into treaties with out 66% of the senate?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

Perhaps a better way to put it would be to write that the Constitution defines the specific powers of our federal government,

Except it does more than that - it also specifies the general organization of the government, in addition to its duties and powers.

Hence, my use of the word "form".

Well, I would consider that a facet of limiting the government... in this case from taking forms other than that intended, but I see your point.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
exton wrote:
Turk wrote:
The constitution was written to restrain the government


The constitution was written, in part, with the intent of limiting the scope of the government.

Like cookie said: foreign policy is well within the scope of what the constitution defines.

You may not LIKE interventionist foreign policy, and there are good grounds on which you can argue against it, but the constitution isn't one of them.
Our foreign policy of preemptive conflicts is permitted by the constitution?
With out consent of the people congress and a declaration of war?
You need to get your facts straight
President entering into treaties with out 66% of the senate?


Ahh but they have been clever, it is precisely the fact that they didn't declare war that they get away with it, it's just a redefinition of terms, what you are really against is police actions.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Turk wrote:
exton wrote:
Turk wrote:
The constitution was written to restrain the government


The constitution was written, in part, with the intent of limiting the scope of the government.

Like cookie said: foreign policy is well within the scope of what the constitution defines.

You may not LIKE interventionist foreign policy, and there are good grounds on which you can argue against it, but the constitution isn't one of them.
Our foreign policy of preemptive conflicts is permitted by the constitution?
With out consent of the people congress and a declaration of war?
You need to get your facts straight
President entering into treaties with out 66% of the senate?


Ahh but they have been clever, it is precisely the fact that they didn't declare war that they get away with it, it's just a redefinition of terms, what you are really against is police actions.
Yes i am against police actions
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