Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: religious people say: "no morality without god"
There are religious people (not all of them, I don't even know if it's 10%, 30% or 90%) which are convinced that without god, a person cannot be moral. I have experienced that several times while listening to callers on atheist-experience*com/archive
To think about this, I'll just reduce morality to the "golden rule": Treat others like you'd like to be treated youself. I would describe that behaviour as "symmetric".
Now, religious people say that no one would have any reason to behave symmetrically if it weren't for God. My impression is that they see atheists as outlaws who roam the land and do whatever they want.
I object to that perspective.
People who have that conviction have been asked if they would steal and murder if there weren't their god keeping track of their actions and presenting the bill in the end or altering their lifes accordingly. Or if there weren't some kind of karma-justice in the system. And quite a few of those, consequential in their argument, reply: Yes, they would behave antisocial like that.
I find that attitude disgusting.
If there were no higher justice at all, would not we, the humans, be responsible to become that higher justice? We don't have to be part of type Y of Christianity in which people are to strive for being like Jesus Christ (unlike type X in which people can be assholes, just repent before you die, and I have no idea how many types there are, but there are several strong groups with very different, even contradicting convictions as to what a true Christian is). We can strive for impersonating the loving god without believing in a real god. Some people do that. They are living proof that you don't need to believe in god to be a good person.
And people who claim that without god you can't be moral... those people effectively dislike the non-religious good people, want them not to be good. Because they disprove their argument. People who claim that without god you can't be moral... they are evil. Because either they don't want non-religous good people not to be - or they are plain lying to speak out for their religion.
Don't listen to someone who has to lie to get you into his club. His position is weak. Don't socialize with liars.
Even if non-believers were as immoral as said religious people *want* them to be... their god is the police. Law breakers get fined or imprisoned.
Now, why did our society come up with a system like that? Did god instate the police force? No. We, the people, did it. We don't want our society to break down, and we don't want harm to come to us or the people we like - or even to anyone.
The police - or morality in general - is the collective will of us, the people. We want to exist, live out our lifes.
If there were no god, a knife would still hurt and a gun would still kill. The people would still not want their posessions stolen or their bodies hurt. The people would still not want harm to come to their loved ones.
It is unbelievable how blatant the lie of said religious people is.
Well, maybe it's not even a lie. Maybe they really believe that without god, there would not be moral behaviour. But then they can only speak for themselves because, as I have proven above, society does not need morals from a god to know that it wants some enforced morality.
So, people who really believe that god is necessary for people to be moral are to be considered dangerous and mentally damaged. They cannot relate to society in a natural way and abuse religion to justify their psychotic attitude.
There are people who just want to be good, who just do not want to be hurtful or negative to others. Maybe they're just intelligent and know that the survival of their herd is generally good for their personal survival. Maybe they just feel some kind of love-emotion towards any person as a default (as long as they don't have reason to look at a person in a negative way).
Maybe those people experience joy by giving joy to others. A thankful smile is a reward. And maybe what goes around comes around later, you never know.
And then there's the possibility that some people just want to be good so that they are at inner peace with themselves, they don't need any reason or payback.
All these variants exist. In all religions. And among atheists.
Now, the religious people who claim that there cannot be morality without god (and who have no moral of their own) are totally unfair because they claim that non-religious people are only moral because religion's morals somehow bled over to them.
At some point, it is useless to keep arguing molten minds. They would find any gap and pour their devil worshipping rotten selves into that and try to keep spreading their lies. That's the point when the argument is over for me.