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Lilmznicoleta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:29 am    Post subject: Pro-Choice but personally against abortion.... Reply with quote
isn't necessarily hypocritical or condescending.


<blockquote>The “I think abortion should be legal but I would never have one” argument grates on my nerves. You don’t know what you would do if faced with an unwanted pregnancy. You don’t know how the circumstances of your life will change, and what will influence your future decisions. Saying that you think the little ladies should have the right butyou are morally superior enough to never terminate a pregnancy is condescending and completely unhelpful to the abortion rights movement. It feeds into positioning the conversation around fetal rights rather than women’s rights. It supports the idea that abortion is more an issue of personal morality than one of medical access.

Abortion itself, though, can be a savior for women, and a positive choice. Abortion is a medical procedure and, like most medical procedures, is preempted by some sort of negative event. And yet the discourse around abortion is focused on how “tragic” it is. Is open-heart surgery “tragic”? Is an appendectomy “tragic”? Obviously the circumstances leading up to open-heart surgery and appendectomy are bad. But the procedures themselves, I would argue, are good responses to bad situations. As is abortion.</blockquote>Link />

I agree with all of the above but I am among the people who would get on her nerves because I wouldn't have an abortion and am 100 percent pro-choice.

I am aware that my assertion is really presumptuous being that I've never been in the situation to make that hard decision, and I am perfectly aware of, and sympathetic to, women who make the choice to have an abortion when it's based purely on life factors that they can control.

I also do not in any way, look down on women who have them just because they don't want to have a child, either right at that moment or ever because above any of my beliefs or my own, at times conflicting, ideas on the issue, the belief that has held strongest for me on the abortion issue is that a woman has the choice to choose what to do with her body and life always.

It's only right that women have the option of having this medical procedure available and for many women it it is the most moral/responsible decision they make. And while I agree that the focus should stay on the woman, not the fetus, at times I wonder if some pro-choicers' resistance to acknowledging the feelings, towards the fetus some have, is actually detrimental to the support for a woman's right to choose.

While regarding abortion as a purely medical procedure that can have both physical and emotional side effects (like heart surgery), this ignores the fact that for many women (and men), more feelings are involved in this procedure than others. It's similiar to two people getting engaged; an actual marriage hasn't existed yet but once they engagement ring goes on the finger, the couple will begin to think about their married life together.

For many people, the second they hear they are pregnant, they begin imagining a future child, regardless of whether or not they believe the fetus constitues personhood at that moment in their stomach. For some, this is what leads them to decide on aborting the fetus because they realize the potential future with the baby isn't a desirable one.

And for many that decision is really difficult even if they feel certain it's the right thing to do. The emotional element involved in making this decision is very real and in many cases, very powerful, and I don't think it helps pro-choicers to ignore this or make light of it.

I'd assume that the majority of people in this country are on the fence on the abortion issue, whether they are pro-choice or pro-life, and that most people would feel more comfortable getting strongly behind pro-choicers if pro-choicers were more willing to understand the issues that plague them about it as well.

This doesn't require thinking that the fetus is a person, that abortion is immoral, or anything for that matter. But I think groups like Catholics for a Free Choice (or on the other side, the antiabortionists) resonate deeply with some people because it adresses the issues surrounding abortion that many pro-choicers refuse to talk about on principal.

It could help change minds and hearts if more pro-choicers were willing to engage openly in those discussions, without backing away from the main issues of abortion.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm a guy, so obviously no matter what I wanted I wouldn't have an abortion personally, but were I to get a girl pregnant I would encourage her to keep the baby and put it up for adoption, it's hard for people who care unable to have children, and then mebbe I'd be able to meet them later on, which I would certainly like.
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ringwormbettie
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hope to God that I never get pregnant unless it is planned because I don't want the surprise of a baby (or abortion)! I hope to be very careful and never have to deal with making the choice of abortion because I am sure it is not an easy one. I am pro-choice politically and personally because I have no idea which one I would choose.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good point ringworm! I never thought about it like that, if your not sure which you would choose, you should definitely vote for abortion, because you just don't know.
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CustomFordGirl
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
You don’t know what you would do if faced with an unwanted pregnancy.


I hate this argument with a passion.

I have always been anti-abortion. When I left my (now ex-)husband, I got back together with an old boyfriend. A few months later, I got pregnant.
I was still in the divorce process, still technically married, not sure if I was going to want this boyfriend in my life forever.. in short, the pregnancy was a complete blind-side.
Yes, I thought about abortion. I thought about all the arguments for it, and I thought about my own beliefs. (I thought about a lot of things, not the least of which being the joy that my child would bring me.)
In the end, I stuck to my guns.. faced with an "unwanted" pregnancy, and the decisions that followed, I stayed true to my beliefs.
So Yes, I DO know what I would do if faced with and unwanted pregnancy. I know it's a hard decision, and I know it's one that will tax a person's resolve, test their beliefs, and cause a lot (and I mean a LOT) of distress.. but that doesn't mean that the easy way is the best way. Like I've said before, I wouldn't change my decision for anything.
My aunt, on the other hand, made the other choice...
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
i just thank goodness we have a choice.
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CustomFordGirl
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My point might have gone unnoticed.
Just because a pregnancy is inconvenient or unwanted, doesn't mean that the resulting child is also going to be inconvenient or unwanted.. and if it is, give it to someone who will appreciate the opportunity to raise a child.

My second point: if someone doesn't WANT a pregnancy, they shouldn't be having sex. I beat myself over the head with that one a couple times.
Personal responsibility.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
CustomFordGirl wrote:
My point might have gone unnoticed.
Just because a pregnancy is inconvenient or unwanted, doesn't mean that the resulting child is also going to be inconvenient or unwanted.. and if it is, give it to someone who will appreciate the opportunity to raise a child.


That is not a feasible solution. There are not enough potential parents to raise all the results of mistaken or unwanted pregnancies.

Quote:

My second point: if someone doesn't WANT a pregnancy, they shouldn't be having sex. I beat myself over the head with that one a couple times.
Personal responsibility.


No kidding, i'm right there with you. Just like how, if people don't want to get into car accidents, they shouldn't go around driving cars! We shouldn't bother sending ambulances or police officers - car accident victims should think about the potential consequences of their actions before doing things.
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CustomFordGirl
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
CustomFordGirl wrote:
My point might have gone unnoticed.
Just because a pregnancy is inconvenient or unwanted, doesn't mean that the resulting child is also going to be inconvenient or unwanted.. and if it is, give it to someone who will appreciate the opportunity to raise a child.


That is not a feasible solution. There are not enough potential parents to raise all the results of mistaken or unwanted pregnancies.

Not so. http://adoptionnetwork.com/?gcid=C13083x650
There wouldn't be sites like this all over the place if there weren't parents out there who want otherwise unwanted babies.
A friend of mine was pregnant at the same time I was, and a couple weeks before she gave birth she decided that she wasn't "mother" material and gave her son up for adoption - but she did an "open" adoption (yes, through an agency) and the new parents were actually there at his birth. So don't tell me that the parents aren't out there.

exton wrote:

CustomFordGirl wrote:

My second point: if someone doesn't WANT a pregnancy, they shouldn't be having sex. I beat myself over the head with that one a couple times.
Personal responsibility.

No kidding, i'm right there with you. Just like how, if people don't want to get into car accidents, they shouldn't go around driving cars! We shouldn't bother sending ambulances or police officers - car accident victims should think about the potential consequences of their actions before doing things.

Now that's just asinine and you know it.
That's like "if you don't want to fall down, don't learn to walk" or "if you don't want to get fired don't get a job."
No, what I'm saying is that if you don't want an undesired effect, don't engage in the cause.
Other such examples: if you don't want a drug addiction, don't do drugs. If you don't want salmonella poisoning, don't eat bloody chicken. THAT sort of thing..

And here I was starting to think I could retract my comment about seeing things from your point of view...
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
CustomFordGirl wrote:
exton wrote:

That is not a feasible solution. There are not enough potential parents to raise all the results of mistaken or unwanted pregnancies.

Not so. http://adoptionnetwork.com/?gcid=C13083x650
There wouldn't be sites like this all over the place if there weren't parents out there who want otherwise unwanted babies.
A friend of mine was pregnant at the same time I was, and a couple weeks before she gave birth she decided that she wasn't "mother" material and gave her son up for adoption - but she did an "open" adoption (yes, through an agency) and the new parents were actually there at his birth. So don't tell me that the parents aren't out there.


Perhaps you weren't aware that the number of abortions in the united states is around 800,000 each year.

Quote:

exton wrote:

No kidding, i'm right there with you. Just like how, if people don't want to get into car accidents, they shouldn't go around driving cars! We shouldn't bother sending ambulances or police officers - car accident victims should think about the potential consequences of their actions before doing things.

Now that's just asinine and you know it.
That's like "if you don't want to fall down, don't learn to walk" or "if you don't want to get fired don't get a job."
No, what I'm saying is that if you don't want an undesired effect, don't engage in the cause.
Other such examples: if you don't want a drug addiction, don't do drugs. If you don't want salmonella poisoning, don't eat bloody chicken. THAT sort of thing.


The difference being, of course, that potentially undesireably effects of sex can be fixed.

Drug addiction, on the other hand, is inevitable and not particularly reversible. And while salmonella could be prevented with antibiotics, you run the risk of breeding a civilization-destroying plague. So, not a good idea.

Really, it doesn't make any sense - on its own - to say "well, if you don't want babies, don't have sex, 'cause we're not gonna let you have abortions!"

If you want to restrict abortions, you need an actual reason.
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CustomFordGirl
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="exton"]Perhaps you weren't aware that the number of abortions in the united states is around 800,000 each year.
Perhaps you weren't aware that the number of couples who can't have children and want to adopt is around 2.6 million each year.

exton wrote:
The difference being, of course, that potentially undesireably effects of sex can be fixed.

You mean like, procreation?
Herpes is incurable.
Deadly/Potentially Fatal STDs:
AIDS (irreversible)
Chlamydia (to women), can cause infertility.
Syphilis can cause spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) and stillbirths.
Left untreated, gonorrhea can get into the bloodstream causing a serious (and potentially fatal) complication known as disseminated gonococcal infection.
HPV is linked to cancer.
(sources: http://www.rileyhospital.org/a.....Chart.htm, and http://www.thebody.com/content/prev/art2301.html)

exton wrote:
Drug addiction, on the other hand, is inevitable and not particularly reversible. And while salmonella could be prevented with antibiotics, you run the risk of breeding a civilization-destroying plague. So, not a good idea.

Drug addiction is inevitable? So why the "war on drugs"?

exton wrote:
Really, it doesn't make any sense - on its own - to say "well, if you don't want babies, don't have sex, 'cause we're not gonna let you have abortions!"

If you want to restrict abortions, you need an actual reason.

What, killing babies isn't a good enough reason? And if you don't think they're "persons" yet, think about what you're saying.. every other life form on earth is recognized as alive when it has a heartbeat, and a heartbeat is the one universally accepted indicator of life. The heartbeat of a fetus can be heard at 8 weeks.. in many cases, that's before a woman knows she's pregnant, and extremely few abortions are performed before this point.
No veterinarian will spay a pregnant female animal. Why do animal fetuses have rights and human fetuses not?
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
CustomFordGirl wrote:
exton wrote:
Perhaps you weren't aware that the number of abortions in the united states is around 800,000 each year.

Perhaps you weren't aware that the number of couples who can't have children and want to adopt is around 2.6 million each year.


Really? The number of new couples wanting to adopt is 2.6 million each year?

Or does that number consist of people who didn't get to adopt the previous year(s) as well?

Because it's 800,000 abortions each year - that means 800,000 new babies would be born each year. You need at least 800,000 new adoptions to counter that.

Quote:

exton wrote:
Drug addiction, on the other hand, is inevitable and not particularly reversible. And while salmonella could be prevented with antibiotics, you run the risk of breeding a civilization-destroying plague. So, not a good idea.

Drug addiction is inevitable?


Yes. Or did you think that, if you started using drugs, the drugs would ask for your permission before getting you addicted?

Quote:

So why the "war on drugs"?


Good question. I don't think there ought to be one.

Quote:

exton wrote:
Really, it doesn't make any sense - on its own - to say "well, if you don't want babies, don't have sex, 'cause we're not gonna let you have abortions!"

If you want to restrict abortions, you need an actual reason.

What, killing babies isn't a good enough reason? And if you don't think they're "persons" yet, think about what you're saying.. every other life form on earth is recognized as alive


You're assuming that a human body being alive, and a human body being a person, are the same thing.

They aren't. You aren't automatically a person just because your body is functional in a biological sense.
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
oh my gosh exton. you're back.
i missed you.
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Cookie Parker
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
I'm a guy, so obviously no matter what I wanted I wouldn't have an abortion personally, but were I to get a girl pregnant I would encourage her to keep the baby and put it up for adoption, it's hard for people who care unable to have children, and then mebbe I'd be able to meet them later on, which I would certainly like.


Can't buy it. It would tear the woman apart knowing she had done this should she ever get into a place in her life where she could afford to support the child.

There are numerous children to adopt. Simply because couples want the perfect white baby with no blemishes does not mean all conceptions should be born.

No, this is not about filling the needs of childless couples..this is about the rights of a woman to decide her own life...you have no place in that as the father, unless you want to raise the child.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I said that I had no right to choose, but if she wanted my opinion that would be it.

There aren't enough children to adopt, people get put on waiting lists for years.
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