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National Driver Register Abused by States and Localities?

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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: National Driver Register Abused by States and Localities? Reply with quote
This happened to me:

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-sear.....adeable=no

Quote:
North Carolina drivers who haven't had a ticket in years are being denied new licenses because their names have popped up in a national computer database that has flagged 42 million Americans as "problem drivers."

States are supposed to use the National Driver Register to warn each other about dangerous drivers who lost their licenses for impaired driving and other motor vehicle offenses.

But the register also penalizes good drivers for unresolved paperwork that is sometimes decades old. Some motorists describe the register as a blunt instrument that combines the clumsy weight of 50 state bureaucracies.

Greg C. Wait was a 20-year-old sailor when he got a ticket for driving drunk in upstate New York. He paid a fine and lost his Illinois license and his New York driving privileges for a year.

That was in 1983. This year, three states made him pay again.

Wait has a record of safe driving since he moved to Raleigh in 1996. But, citing objections from New York and Illinois, the N.C. Division of Motor Vehicles refused to renew his license in September when he turned 45.

North Carolina DMV officials do not tell drivers that they check the National Driver Register for every one of the 2.5 million licenses they issue each year. Under state and federal law, if another state says your license there is revoked or suspended, you must clear your name before North Carolina can issue a new license or renew your old one.

North Carolina motorists have to cough up forgotten fees, pay off disputed tickets and then wait for the paperwork to go through before they regain the privilege to drive.

"Is this to generate revenue," Wait asked, "or to keep the highways safe?"
...

Is it reasonable to withhold a driver's license over a fee he or she allegedly failed to pay over 20 years ago? Is that what the NDR was created for?
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Turk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow this is the kind of mess that will be more frequent under real id.
Why are you complaining about this
I thought that you liked a centeral id and information that can be hacked and id stolen and have the same bureaucratic problems that you are complaning about.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
Wow this is the kind of mess that will be more frequent under real id.

I'd ask you to offer something to support that notion, but why bother, right?

Turk wrote:
Why are you complaining about this

Because (A) it actually happened to me and (B) it is an actual case of real abuse of a system intended to make us safer. (As opposed to your complaints about Real ID which are worst-case projections of possible abuses which have not happened.)

Turk wrote:
I thought that you liked a centeral id and information that can be hacked and id stolen and have the same bureaucratic problems that you are complaning about.

Yeah, Turk, that's what I said. You got me. You're a genius. Rolling Eyes
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Question, cann you yourself check the database to see if you have any fines *before* you have to get your liscense renewed?

Cause if so, meh.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Question, cann you yourself check the database to see if you have any fines *before* you have to get your liscense renewed?

Cause if so, meh.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/si.....0cba046a0/
Quote:
1. How can I find out if I am listed in NDR?
You are entitled, under the provisions of the Privacy Act, to request a file search to see if you have a record on the NDR.

Please call 202-366-4800 for more information.

Now, assume you're me. Your driver license is up for renewal on your birthday. You go to renew your license. Are you going to stop and wonder whether--completely unknown to you--two states have blocked your ability to renew your license because you owe them $95 (total) from 23 years ago?

But more to the point, the stated goal of the NDR is:

Quote:
National Driver Register (Overview)
The National Driver Register (NDR) is a computerized database of information about drivers who have had their licenses revoked or suspended, or who have been convicted of serious traffic violations such as driving while impaired by alcohol or drugs. State motor vehicle agencies provide NDR with the names of individuals who have lost their privilege or who have been convicted of a serious traffic violation. When a person applies for a driver's license the state checks to see if the name is on the NDR file. If a person has been reported to the NDR as a problem driver, the license may be denied.

In other words, it is to keep someone who has shown himself or herself to be a danger in one state from getting a new license in another state during the time the first state has revoked/suspended his or her driving privileges.

Does the fact that I didn't know I needed to pay these fees in the past mean I was a danger in the present? Of course not. One block in the NDR for me was for having a broken headlight in 1993. Does that really warrant using this database to keep me off the roads?

The NDR is being used to collect past due revenue. That's not what it was created to do. That's abuse. That's not imagined abuse, it's not possible future abuse. It's happening right now to MILLIONS of citizens. It's effectively government blackmail. You don't pay, you don't get to drive. There's no statute of limitations and no right of appeal.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you think what you are going through is hard
wait until there is a national id card
this i promise will be more frequent constly and time consuming
but you are ok with it
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
If you think what you are going through is hard
wait until there is a national id card

Again, you want to assert possible future abuses as fact; we're supposed to be more concerned about what you THINK will happen, than things that are actually happening right now.

Turk wrote:
this i promise will be more frequent constly and time consuming
but you are ok with it

Again, I have to ask... is English a second language for you?
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Turk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well why do you believe that a national id card system wont run into the same problems as your little fiasco with the national driver thing?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
Well why do you believe that a national id card system wont run into the same problems as your little fiasco with the national driver thing?

First and foremost, because it isn't a national ID card system.

But then I never suggested that it can't be abused. In fact, if you bothered to read what I actually wrote, instead of consistently attributing arguments and positions to me that I've never made and don't hold, you'd notice that I quite clearly wrote more than once that Real ID could be abused. But then, what can't? And for the absolute last time: the fact that it might be abused does not justify the absurd notion that the government shouldn't set standards for what constitutes a legal ID for government uses.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
National ID is going to be in a centeral data base just like that program that you are having trouble with.
What makes you think that centeralizing all of these things is going to make things any better?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
National ID is going to be in a centeral data base just like that program that you are having trouble with.
What makes you think that centeralizing all of these things is going to make things any better?

Turk - I think you mean well, but you do your arguments a disservice when you state things that simply aren't true. It isn't a national ID; the feds aren't creating them, nor are they managing them. If you think otherwise, cite the specific language from the Real ID act that makes you think so.

Here's what the Real ID act says about databases:

Quote:
SEC. 203. LINKING OF DATABASES.

(a) In General- To be eligible to receive any grant or other type of financial assistance made available under this title, a State shall participate in the interstate compact regarding sharing of driver license data, known as the `Driver License Agreement', in order to provide electronic access by a State to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other States.

(b) Requirements for Information- A State motor vehicle database shall contain, at a minimum, the following information:

(1) All data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards issued by the State.

(2) Motor vehicle drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses.

I wonder whether the NDR is intended to serve as the central, linked database for Real ID purposes. ???

Curiously, section 203 refers to funding for this effort, but I note the media consistently tell us that this is unfunded. (I don't know who is right, it just makes me wonder about it.)

Section 205 specifically speaks of federal money to help implement the requirements of Real ID:

Quote:
SEC. 205. GRANTS TO STATES.

(a) In General- The Secretary may make grants to a State to assist the State in conforming to the minimum standards set forth in this title.

(b) Authorization of Appropriations- There are authorized to be appropriated to the Secretary for each of the fiscal years 2005 through 2009 such sums as may be necessary to carry out this title.
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