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gorudy08
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Mccain and immigration Reply with quote
Now yes I was looking at Mccain as the most conservative in this race even though I want Rudy. But I really don't like his immigration's idea but yes Rudy kind of wants the same idea but I'm still for him because of what he did to New York. But what do you think that we should do about immigration?
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
i think we should send rudy, hillary and mc cain to FEMA internment camps.

i then think that we should register illegals so that they are forced to pay taxes and so people who hire illegals are forced to pay them at least minimum wage making hiring an illegal as appealing as hiring anyone else who desperately needs a job and wants to work.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Giuliani is the most fascist of any of the candidates. How could you support him?

And i think we should revise our immigration laws, so as to make it more easy to be here legally.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
And i think we should revise our immigration laws, so as to make it more easy to be here legally.


Some might take issue with that. Like those who live in border states
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Then i think that would show their true character - it's not "illegal" immigrants that bother them, it's immigrants in general; the "illegal" part is just a convenient excuse for xenophobia.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Then i think that would show their true character - it's not "illegal" immigrants that bother them, it's immigrants in general; the "illegal" part is just a convenient excuse for xenophobia.


Exton, it is my understanding that you live in MA, correct. I don't see you facing the same issues that people on border atates may face. There are two sides to every story. There are people who live on the border states who are predjudice, granted. But that is not the core of the issue. It is not about race, it is about sovereignty.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
it is about sovereignty.


And what exactly does that mean?
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Xerxes wrote:
it is about sovereignty.


And what exactly does that mean?


I am saying that you do not live in a border state, so you can not really just pass it off on racism. Because you do not have tons of people cutting through your yard every day.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Even Cesar Estrada Chavez disapproved of illegal aliens.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:

I am saying that you do not live in a border state, so you can not really just pass it off on racism.


Xenophobia is not the same as racism.

And that's not what i asked.

You said the problem was a matter of sovereignty - i asked what, exactly, you meant by that. What does it mean for the problem to be a matter of sovereignty?

Quote:

Because you do not have tons of people cutting through your yard every day.Even Cesar Estrada Chavez disapproved of illegal aliens.


But what if they weren't illegal? What if they came over and it was legal for them to do so? People would still be upset about it, and that's what i meant in my post: the matter has nothing to do with *illegal* immigrants. It's about immigrants in general.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
You said the problem was a matter of sovereignty - i asked what, exactly, you meant by that. What does it mean for the problem to be a matter of sovereignty?


Sovereignty is what it is. Look it up. We do have immigation laws too. Although never used.

exton wrote:
But what if they weren't illegal? What if they came over and it was legal for them to do so? People would still be upset about it, and that's what i meant in my post: the matter has nothing to do with *illegal* immigrants. It's about immigrants in general.


Therin lies the problem. They are not legal. Immigrants are more than welcome. As long as they go through the proper channels. Do you think that it would be fair to all of the Mexican-Americans who came here and got there citizenship legally, and had to jump through all of the hoops, to make it happen? To just give amnesty to all of those that are already here.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
exton wrote:
You said the problem was a matter of sovereignty - i asked what, exactly, you meant by that. What does it mean for the problem to be a matter of sovereignty?


Sovereignty is what it is. Look it up. We do have immigation laws too. Although never used.


I know what sovereignty is.

I'm asking you to explain how the issue of immigration causes a problem involving sovereignty. Connect the two and explain yourself!

Quote:

exton wrote:
But what if they weren't illegal? What if they came over and it was legal for them to do so? People would still be upset about it, and that's what i meant in my post: the matter has nothing to do with *illegal* immigrants. It's about immigrants in general.


Therin lies the problem. They are not legal. Immigrants are more than welcome. As long as they go through the proper channels.


That's not what i'm talking about at all.

Suppose, hypothetically speaking, that it was, in fact, perfeclty legal to enter the united states and stay there by hiding in trucks and driving clandestinely across the boarder without telling the government about it. Suppose that were totally legal.

If that were the case, then there would be no "illegal" immigrants.

But that wouldn't solve anything, because people would STILL be upset about immigration! They would still have a problem with what's going on, only they wouldn't be able to claim that it's merely a matter of legality.

That's why i'm saying that the fact that they are here *illegally* isn't really the central issue at all, it's just a convenient talking point. The real issue is soemthign else entirely.

Quote:

Do you think that it would be fair to all of the Mexican-Americans who came here and got there citizenship legally, and had to jump through all of the hoops, to make it happen? To just give amnesty to all of those that are already here.


Pfft, by that reasoning we shouldn't have ended slavery - after all, was freeing a bunch of black people very fair to their ancestors, who had had to live in slavery?

No! Of course not. But that's the way life is: it isn't fair. We should fix mistakes, not continue them. Suffering shouldn't be evenly distributed across time - it should be attenuated over time.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
I know what sovereignty is.


Then you should completely understand my obvious logic.

exton wrote:
I'm asking you to explain how the issue of immigration causes a problem involving sovereignty. Connect the two and explain yourself!


sovereignty
• noun (pl. sovereignties) 1) supreme power or authority. 2) a self-governing state.
1) If we have borders that the federal government is obligated to protect and defend it is not showing very much supreme power OR very much authority if we can't stop a nonstop flow of people coming and going across our border unabated? 2)If we are in fact a self-governing state then shouldn't we, the self governors be asked ahead of time whether or not it is cool to migrate to the US

exton wrote:
Suppose, hypothetically speaking, that it was, in fact, perfeclty legal to enter the united states and stay there by hiding in trucks and driving clandestinely across the boarder without telling the government about it. Suppose that were totally legal.
If that were the case, then there would be no "illegal" immigrants.That's why i'm saying that the fact that they are here *illegally* isn't really the central issue at all, it's just a convenient talking point. The real issue is soemthign else entirely.


What you just described I think is Bush's guest-worker program. Bush is as ever committed to the agenda of corporate America on its ability to exploit cheap labor. The middle class and working men and women in the United States are going to continue to be assaulted by a continuing flow of cheap foreign labor into the United States and outsourcing of jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.

Support for an enforcement first policy on immigration tops the 60% mark in all but one of 33 states polled by Rasmussen Reports over the past month (see State-by-State):

http://www.rasmussenreports.co.....s_by_state

Even Massachusetts, that den of inequities liberal elitists stronghold is at 58% pro enforcing existing laws and control the border before considering new reforms :
http://www.rasmussenreports.co.....tion_views

Xerxes wrote:
Do you think that it would be fair to all of the Mexican-Americans who came here and got there citizenship legally, and had to jump through all of the hoops, to make it happen? To just give amnesty to all of those that are already here.


exton wrote:
Pfft, by that reasoning we shouldn't have ended slavery - after all, was freeing a bunch of black people very fair to their ancestors, who had had to live in slavery? No! Of course not.


You would have to ask a black person if they think it is fair to their ancestors. 007, you have anything to add here?
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thelast007
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The influx of cheap labor(which is below our standard minimum wage) has to be controlled to stabilize wage rates for American citizens.

If they legalize all illegals it will not matter. As new legal citizens they will demand minimum wage. Then employers will seeks new illegals that are not citizens yet to replace them.

It's about stopping cheap labor (which happens to be illegal immigrants) that drives down the wage rate. No matter where they are from.

And we don't have a national security problem.
it's a national wage problem. (if middle eastern terrorist wanted to cross that border they would have come a long time ago. terrorist are here on visas granted by our govenment.)
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is almost like immigrants are fighting for their right to be exploited. Like 007 said, it is all about the cheap labor. Once immigrants start demanding fair wages, the corporations that are now lobbying for amnesty, will make a 180 degree turn and start lobbying for "border security" when they find out that their little ploy to get some cheap labor has blown up in their collective faces.
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