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Man tests faith against river; the river wins
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Oolon Colluphid
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JesusLopezViejo wrote:
I just read an article about a pastor who told a family that prayer would heal their child's throat cancer instead of medical methods. So the freakin family stopped the chemotherapy and cancer drugs in favor of prayer. The kid died now the family is suing the pastor.

Unbelievable world we live in...


Why don't they sue their God instead? The pastor was only doing what the bible says.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oolon Colluphid wrote:

Talk about blind leading the blind.


I was tempted to use that, but i figured that it doesn't really capture the magnitude of the wrongness that has occured.

Blind people can't help being unable to see, whereas, when people make stupid decisions, they are entirely at fault for the consequences.
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PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oolon Colluphid wrote:
JesusLopezViejo wrote:
I just read an article about a pastor who told a family that prayer would heal their child's throat cancer instead of medical methods. So the freakin family stopped the chemotherapy and cancer drugs in favor of prayer. The kid died now the family is suing the pastor.

Unbelievable world we live in...


Why don't they sue their God instead? The pastor was only doing what the bible says.


God doesn't have money, just real estate. ALL the real estate.
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JesusLopezViejo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
PeaceLoveandRockNRoll wrote:
Oolon Colluphid wrote:
JesusLopezViejo wrote:
I just read an article about a pastor who told a family that prayer would heal their child's throat cancer instead of medical methods. So the freakin family stopped the chemotherapy and cancer drugs in favor of prayer. The kid died now the family is suing the pastor.

Unbelievable world we live in...


Why don't they sue their God instead? The pastor was only doing what the bible says.


God doesn't have money, just real estate. ALL the real estate.


Even the mosques and the indian temples!
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Oolon Colluphid
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Oolon Colluphid wrote:

Talk about blind leading the blind.


I was tempted to use that, but i figured that it doesn't really capture the magnitude of the wrongness that has occured.

Blind people can't help being unable to see, whereas, when people make stupid decisions, they are entirely at fault for the consequences.


Well, yes... I used it though because it has an irony related to the prayer story that comes directly out of the bible itself.

Matthew 15:14 reads "If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit."

John 14:13 reads "And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it."
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His_Princess
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
His_Princess wrote:
You know when a person has some sort of accident and they are told they can’t walk. But they believe they can, they work on it and end up walking. But if they just assume the doctors right and don’t try they never walk again. Or a football player is told he sucks and will never make it? Its called believing in yourself its basically like that believing one can do it. How do I know this? I thought it was common sense and everyone knew it.


There's an important difference.

Improving one's game at football and recovering from a debilitating disease do not violate fundamental laws of the universe. It's both possible and plausible that you can do both of those things, if you work hard at it.

Walking on liquid water without the use of a flotation device is not the same: in order to do that, you need to defy either gravity or electromagnetism, both of which are physically impossible things to do.


ok I dont want to be rude but DUH that was the whole point of him walking on water. The fact that its "impossible" to do he also brought people back from the dead, healed the sick, produced more food, turned water into wine. Last but not least he rose from the dead. All things which are impossible. Like I have said I know you dont believe this stuff but I do and so doe's every christain and catholic. What Jesus did wasnt ment to be ridiculed with theorys and whatever you want to call it. It was ment to have faith. Thats what this religon is all about, I have explained why the pastor failed choose not to believe it, be naive I dont really care. You can go around and say it was impossible all you want but unless you were there during the time you cant really prove anything so I'll choose to have faith, and believe and you can not believe and not have faith ok?
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CryxicKiller
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The problem: that's not good enough. What you are essentially doing is waving all responsibility and semblance that all humans should have towards ratiocination, but doing so on a matter with fundamental consequences. It is completely irrelevant, in the argumentative sense, that you believe in those things; the only hope you have towards infusing your beliefs with credibility lies in offering potentially tantalizing evidence or logical reasoning. Otherwise, your beliefs are child's play, and one would see no special reason to hold the beliefs that you do versus a million other equivalent positions. In that case, the very holding of a belief is meaningless. If we are to claim that every belief has merit, then not a single one does.

If you believe what you do simply because of faith, and nothing else, then it is just as easy for you to drop your belief, immediately at this instant, and strongly have faith towards a diametrically opposed idea or position, holding onto that new belief due to sheer faith. If faith were the only arbiter, then it only awaits for you to find a victim, but it does not care what it is or why you strike.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess wrote:


ok I dont want to be rude but DUH that was the whole point of him walking on water. The fact that its "impossible" to do he also brought people back from the dead, healed the sick, produced more food, turned water into wine. Last but not least he rose from the dead. All things which are impossible.


And yet, the things that you cited as being products of the force of will ARE possible. So why bother bringing those things up to support what you say?

Quote:

Like I have said I know you dont believe this stuff but I do and so doe's every christain and catholic. What Jesus did wasnt ment to be ridiculed with theorys and whatever you want to call it. It was ment to have faith.


And bullets are meant to kill people.
Doesn't mean you should use them for what they're intended.

Quote:

Thats what this religon is all about, I have explained why the pastor failed choose not to believe it, be naive I dont really care.


It's naive to be skeptical of fantastic claims that have no supporting evidence?

No, no.
It's naive to believe stories that people tell you just because you want to. That's not just naive, it's also extraodinarily gullible.

Quote:

You can go around and say it was impossible all you want but unless you were there during the time you cant really prove anything


But then, i don't have to.
Claims that are made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Quote:

so I'll choose to have faith, and believe and you can not believe and not have faith ok?


Just try not to think that way when you go to vote. For all of our sakes.
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PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess, you're certainly welcome to have faith in whatever you'd like to have faith in, I respect that view even if I'll never understand it. I think the issue here is you used biblical stories (which, in my humble opinion, were written as proverbs, not literal depictions of actual events) to make a rational argument. Faith is fine, but keep it in the realm of faith. You need to recognize that there are many things that you believe on faith, just as there are many things I believe on faith, but I understand that I can never tell anyone else that these things are rationally true. If they were, it wouldn't be a matter of faith. Debate is made up of rational argument, and while you're certainly free to explain what you believe to us all, you really can't use it as a justification, much less a citation, for your argument. And, as exton pointed out, you need to differentiate between unlikely things and impossible things.

I won't ask you to remember that our oldest copies of the gospels are written centuries after the events they describe, and thus are unlikely to be accurate and unembellished, because I don't expect you'd listen. Again, because that's a LOGICAL argument against personal FAITH. It's about as likely to succeed as arguing faith against logic.
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His_Princess
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I also believe that most of the stories in the Bible were used as you say. However I think that the miracles that Jesus performed did happen. I’m also interested to say that you’re asking me not to use my religion to defend a situation that is all about religion. The point of the person who was trying to walk on water and failed he was trying to show faith. Others were criticizing him so yes I used Biblical situations and such to defend on what he was trying to do and why he failed to do so, because I figured that would be appropriate since the situation it self was all about religion and faith. Using scientifical fact and what if its possible or not to criticize a religious situation isn’t fair in my opinion. I do understand why people would since they them selves aren’t Christian so that is all they know/use/believe whatever. I think this is all I am really going to say in this situation.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scientifical?
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess wrote:
The point of the person who was trying to walk on water and failed he was trying to show faith. Others were criticizing him so yes I used Biblical situations and such to defend on what he was trying to do and why he failed to do so, because I figured that would be appropriate since the situation it self was all about religion and faith.


Nononono.

Faith isn't the problem.

The problem is: you can't violate the laws of physics.

Man and nature have had many contests about this.
Nature has won every single time.


Quote:

Using scientifical fact and what if its possible or not to criticize a religious situation isn’t fair in my opinion.


When, in real life, you try to walk on water, it's not a "religious situation".

The laws of the universe don't change for religious believers, regardless of what they believe or how much they believe it. The universe has made this abundantly clear over the course of history.

Quote:

I do understand why people would since they them selves aren’t Christian so that is all they know/use/believe whatever. I think this is all I am really going to say in this situation.


Pfft, if you ask a rational christian, they'll come to the same conclusion that we have here: God does not annul the laws of physics for his believers.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Scientifical?


Results 1 - 10 of about 203,000 for scientifical. (0.03 seconds)

lol@teh internets
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
203000?? Thats incredibly sad and dissapointing.

But I think your wrong in stating that any rational christian will come to the same conclusion, for one, I think it might be very hard to find a rational christian, and two, God stopped the sun in the sky so someone would have more time to defeat someone else.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:

But I think your wrong in stating that any rational christian will come to the same conclusion, for one, I think it might be very hard to find a rational christian,


Depends on where you live. There are a few around here.

Quote:

and two, God stopped the sun in the sky so someone would have more time to defeat someone else.


I'm pretty sure that a rational christian doesn't take the old testament very seriously either, for more than one reason.
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