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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
Xerxes wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
I guess it's probably more accurate for me to write that I think the quality of education was better in the past than today. That many people did not avail themselves of an education before the government mandated it certainly suggests that, on average, people are better educated today. So I'll give you that one. Cool

It almost seems like the history of the entire 80's have been omitted from our history books.

Well, it certainly seems like an awful lot of people have failed to learn anything meaningful from what occurred then.

I agree. Which is why we need more transparency in government.

I don't disagree, but I don't think that conclusion flows from my statement. I was complaining of the absurd conclusions so many people have drawn from the historical record of the '80's, not from a lack of a record from which to learn. The facts are there. Sadly, most people seem to have taken someone else's word for what those facts are and what they mean.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What would you prefer to see in the education system?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
What would you prefer to see in the education system?

Local control. Dismantle the department of education and put the NEA on notice that the only issue of concern in educating our kids will be what is best for our kids. Assess kids early and often, and tailor their learning experience to best suit their abilities and aptitudes. Part of this assessment MUST include determining which children are coming to school prepared to learn and which are not. Interventions for the latter should reach into the home environment and be made a requirement for the student to continue to attend that school. School choice should be a key component of any viable school system.

By removing the costs associated with a federal bureaucracy that educates no children, the dollars we put towards education will go farther in doing what they are intended to do; educate children. By freeing local school systems to make their own decisions we can benefit from a competition of ideas. School systems that find new and better ways of doing things will become models for others that are failing. Failing schools will be forced to do better as they compete for students with better schools.

But that's just a few quick thoughts on the subject. Wink
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's a problem with that; local governments have too often proven to be incompetent when it comes to figuring out just what it is that children need to learn.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
There's a problem with that; local governments have too often proven to be incompetent when it comes to figuring out just what it is that children need to learn.

I disagree. Besides, that some people can do things badly is no argument against letting others try. The current situation is no ringing endorsement of the feds' influence on education.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

Besides, that some people can do things badly is no argument against letting others try.


Of course not - when it comes to things that don't affect the future of civilization.

Education is not one of those things. We all need an educated population, and so it must be done right.

Quote:

The current situation is no ringing endorsement of the feds' influence on education.


The fed doesn't have the authority to influence education in the way it needs influencing.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

Besides, that some people can do things badly is no argument against letting others try.

Of course not - when it comes to things that don't affect the future of civilization.

I trust localities to understand the needs of their citizens better than a federal government can, and I prefer disparate local solutions to centrally mandated ones.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

I trust localities to understand the needs of their citizens better than a federal government can


Why?

I think it's accurate to say that a locality understands its people's desires much better, but that's not the same.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

I trust localities to understand the needs of their citizens better than a federal government can


Why?

Because a locality can respond to its citizens in a way that a distant federal government cannot, especially when it comes to checking and correcting course when necessary.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree, to a degree. But why would that preclude such a thing as, say, federal education standards?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Localities would introduce the bible into school, or maybe the Torah, perhaps they would have maths classes where you learnt how to catch pigs, or exactly how many lines of crack you should have on hand for any given night if your a pimp with 13 whores living in L.A. as compared to Vegas.

Teaching people things of local import is nice, but what if they want to escape the town they live in?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
I agree, to a degree. But why would that preclude such a thing as, say, federal education standards?

Well, for starters because the bureaucracy needed to create, implement, enforce and measure those standards drains money away from the local systems that actually educate children and which ought to be able to create reasonable standards for themselves.
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fellfire
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:
I agree, to a degree. But why would that preclude such a thing as, say, federal education standards?

Well, for starters because the bureaucracy needed to create, implement, enforce and measure those standards drains money away from the local systems that actually educate children and which ought to be able to create reasonable standards for themselves.


I find myself on both sides of this debate: While I firmly believe that the closer government is to the governed, the more receptive and effective it is to the needs of those it serves, i.e. local police are more effective to a community then the FBI; local firefighters are more effective to the community then FEMA.

However, the closer the government is to the community the more insulated the government is to nation as a whole and the needs of the community whithin that nation. Look at the spate of local school boards and their urge to mandate Creationism in local schools. Now, I know that topic is, in and of itself, an entire thread in the forum, but the point is that the local government (school board) in the case of, say Dover PA., did not take into account the wider issue of the "rule" they passed. Another, less controversial, example is the effectiveness of the FBI versus drug cartels vice the local authorities.

The point is that Federal standards for education allow for a broader look at what we, as a society, need our children to know for them to be successful and find opportunities outside of their local community.

Now, how effective is our current federal programs? Not very, IMO.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:
I agree, to a degree. But why would that preclude such a thing as, say, federal education standards?

Well, for starters because the bureaucracy needed to create, implement, enforce and measure those standards drains money away from the local systems that actually educate children


There's no point in funding something that's ineffective. It's got to work before you bother throwing more money at it.

Quote:

and which ought to be able to create reasonable standards for themselves.


You're right, they should be able to create reasonable standards.

And if they actually could do that, there would be no issue. But they tend to fall short. Far short.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
You're right, they should be able to create reasonable standards.

And if they actually could do that, there would be no issue. But they tend to fall short. Far short.

I believe this form of logical fallacy is called affirming the consequent...

If localities can't manage creation of their own standards, the federal government should step in to do it.

The federal government has stepped in to manage creation of those standards.

Therefore, localities can't manage it themselves.


If localities were left to create their own standards, some would do it better than others and those localities would tend to prosper relative to those that made lesser choices. This competition of ideas would serve to improve education over all, as localities learned from the examples of those doing a better job. When the feds dictate solutions, education suffers because this competition of ideas never occurs.
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