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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:00 pm† †Post subject: Reply with quote
Freddie wrote:
I'm sorry Ex, for the delay in my response. I've been under considerable attack by life. I don't mind sharing that with you. Some make it a point to hide strife in there life afraid it is some sort of bad testimony but in truth even the Apostle Paul who went through great tribulations in his life time did not hide his problems from others.


It's okay, life gets to me too. That's one reason i argue with people on the internet; it's a good distraction.

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Ex, I want you to know that this that you've said sounds exactly like the things I said once in my life. I didn't care about heaven or hell.

The problem is you don't understand hell. You don't believe it enough to be concerned I understand but hell is not something, I can assure you that is a triffle.

It's eternal and it's relentless. There is no break and no repre. An eternity in hell is just that an eternity. It's not something we can get used to either, like spending life in prison where a person can adjust to the surroundings and cope. It's not like having a sever burn where your body can eventual heal it's self or you can get used to the pain enough to endure.


So?

Pain isn't enough to coerce me into changing how i think.

Hell, especially, doesn't do much to sway me. In fact, even if i did believe in hell and god, i wouldn't like god very much. The christian god is not a nice person.

It's a matter of strength of character, i think. I really, honestly am not willing to compromise who i am. I must be legitimately convinced of something in order to believe it - anything less won't do.

Quote:

If you think there is any way what so ever that hell exists please please run it out. Don't take it so lightly. Give some time to study. You know you can't be 100% certain so you have to understand that the one percent you speak of is enough of a chance to be certain of what you affirm, 100% certain because if you are wrong then you'll have eternity to regret.


You can never reasonably be 100% certain about anything. It's not possible. It is, of course, possible to have absolute certainty, but not reasonably so - the only way a person can be 100% certain of anything (other than their own existence) is by ignoring their own ignorance.

And did i not just show you - mathematically, no less - that it is literally impossible to avoid suffering for eternity in hell by guessing the right god?
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Freddie
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:02 pm† †Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Freddie wrote:
I'm sorry Ex, for the delay in my response. I've been under considerable attack by life. I don't mind sharing that with you. Some make it a point to hide strife in there life afraid it is some sort of bad testimony but in truth even the Apostle Paul who went through great tribulations in his life time did not hide his problems from others.


It's okay, life gets to me too. That's one reason i argue with people on the internet; it's a good distraction.

Quote:
Ex, I want you to know that this that you've said sounds exactly like the things I said once in my life. I didn't care about heaven or hell.

The problem is you don't understand hell. You don't believe it enough to be concerned I understand but hell is not something, I can assure you that is a triffle.

It's eternal and it's relentless. There is no break and no repre. An eternity in hell is just that an eternity. It's not something we can get used to either, like spending life in prison where a person can adjust to the surroundings and cope. It's not like having a sever burn where your body can eventual heal it's self or you can get used to the pain enough to endure.


So?

Pain isn't enough to coerce me into changing how i think.

Hell, especially, doesn't do much to sway me. In fact, even if i did believe in hell and god, i wouldn't like god very much. The christian god is not a nice person.

It's a matter of strength of character, i think. I really, honestly am not willing to compromise who i am. I must be legitimately convinced of something in order to believe it - anything less won't do.

Quote:

If you think there is any way what so ever that hell exists please please run it out. Don't take it so lightly. Give some time to study. You know you can't be 100% certain so you have to understand that the one percent you speak of is enough of a chance to be certain of what you affirm, 100% certain because if you are wrong then you'll have eternity to regret.


You can never reasonably be 100% certain about anything. It's not possible. It is, of course, possible to have absolute certainty, but not reasonably so - the only way a person can be 100% certain of anything (other than their own existence) is by ignoring their own ignorance.

And did i not just show you - mathematically, no less - that it is literally impossible to avoid suffering for eternity in hell by guessing the right god?


Okay lets see where to start....

It's not mathmatically impossible. I know who the true God is so there fore it must be possible.

The Christian God is not mean at all. It's as I've said all along you don't really know who He is but rather have allowed twisted and distorded world views to set in your mind as fact. The bible shows the truth of God and His perfect love, mercy and grace for you and all the world past present and future.

If mercy love and grace are bad things in your book I'm a little concerned LOL. But seriously God has been missrepresented for a very very long time.

Please share with me the reason you believe He is mean, lets talk about it....

Lastly my description of hell is not intended to scare you into believing differently. That's not what the doctrine concerning hell is intended for. A scarred person can say something and no believe it seeking to save themselves from punishment so please don't think it was meant like that. I know you are a strong minded fella which is a good thing and I respect it.

That doesn't change the fact that if you do not accept Jesus Christ as the payment for your sinful life (this is the same boat I'm in as well so don't think i'm condeming or judging) then you will have to pay your own debt and that means eternity in hell. Plain and simple.

All I ask Ex is that you give yourself the chance. Give me a chance to show you the true nature of God. Don't make a descission before you've really studied the bible.

That's all I can say or ask. If you aren't interested I won't try and change your mind its not my job. For me I'm just a messenger.
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:52 am† †Post subject: Reply with quote
Freddie wrote:

It's not mathmatically impossible. I know who the true God is so there fore it must be possible.


You believe strongly that you know the true nature of god. But you cannot prove it, so it doesn't count for much.

I, however, have provided you with straightforward reasoning and my conclusion. If you can find error with my reasoning, i'd like to see it.

Quote:

Please share with me the reason you believe He is mean, lets talk about it....


First, there is what he considers to be "sin". It's not in touch with the reality we live in.

Example: god says premarital sex is a sin. And yet, that makes no sense. Such a belief is unreasonable, and punishing people for it is even more unreasonable.

Second, there's the punishment: infinite punishment for finite crimes. That's not okay.

Quote:

That doesn't change the fact that if you do not accept Jesus Christ as the payment for your sinful life (this is the same boat I'm in as well so don't think i'm condeming or judging) then you will have to pay your own debt and that means eternity in hell. Plain and simple.


The debt for finite transgressions is infinite suffering? That's bad arithmetic.

And the very idea that a person needs to attone for his behavior by accepting a human (or godly) sacrifice is absurd.
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phoneguytim
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:58 am† †Post subject: Reply with quote
by the way, the evidence that the sumerians used glue 7000 years ago is based on what, exactly. i'd like to read up on that--could you post a link please?
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exton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:02 am† †Post subject: Reply with quote
phoneguytim wrote:
by the way, the evidence that the sumerians used glue 7000 years ago is based on what, exactly. i'd like to read up on that--could you post a link please?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:39 pm† †Post subject: Reply with quote
Freddy, I've read the bible, god really is quite mean. "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and fourth generations of these who hate me." Exodus 20:4-5

Thats right, a jealous god who punishes the great-great grandchildren of anyone, anyone at all, who dares believe in something other than him.

A God that punishes people who love each other based purely on race? A mean god.

A god that demands ignorance of his first created, the penalty for intelligence being cast out of paradise? A mean god.

A god who will not relent a single day from your torment in hell? A mean god.

A god that has no problem with slavery? A mean god.

A god that give men power over women? A mean god.

Brush up on who this god is maybe, and come back.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:16 pm† †Post subject: Reply with quote
Jehovah is about an abusive parent as you can get

Cruelty and Violence in Genesis

1. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

2. God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

3. God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

4. God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

5. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10

6. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6

7. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8

8. God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24

9. Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26

10. God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7

11. Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14

12. God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13

13. Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10

14. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31

15. "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5

16. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7

17. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10

18. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

19. Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19

And that's just Genesis.................
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Portland
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:44 am† †Post subject: Reply with quote
God is neither Violent nor Cruel

For what he does you also could do. Would you consider yourself cruel then?

He in fact, is Just and Fair.

Quote:
1. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8


I have read this and agree on the action but you also take it out of context.
God Favors Abel, do you not favor your wife or girlfriend over others?

As for the context it says this

"But he did not look with favor on Cain and this offering, and Cain was very angry and downcast." Verse 4:5 Genesis

But if you look at the next two verses God looks upon Cain with favor and asks this.
"Yahweh asked Cain, 'Why are you angry and downcast? 4:6 if you are doing right, surely you ought to hold your head high! But if you are not doing right, Sin is crouching at the door hungry to get you. You can still master him.'4:7

This does not sound like a Cruel God to me. A Cruel God would not have helped Cain after he did the murder either but he did.

Look, today you drive me from the surface of the earth. I must hide from you, and be a restless wanderer on earth. Why, whoever comes across me will kill me! 4:14 'Very well, then,' Yahweh replied, "whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance.' So Yahweh put a mark on Cain, so that no one coming across him would kill him. 4:15

This sounds like Justice to me.

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2. God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17


Again the quote is good but again it is out of context.

Yahweh saw that human wickedness was great on earth and that his heart contrived nothing but wicked schemes all day long. Genesis 6:5 And Yahweh regretted having made human beings on earth and was grieved at heart.6:6 And Yahweh said,'I shall rid the surface of the earth of the human beings whom I created--human and animal, the creeping things and the birds of heaven--for I regret having made them.'6:7

So I ask you if you prick me do I not bleed.
And if, in fact, we are made in God's own image wouldnít you say: if we sin against him does he not grieve?
Would it not be better to say that this was in fact justice?

For if he was really Cruel and Violent he would have killed us all and be done with us. He in fact saved one whole family.

But Noah won Yahweh's favor. This is the story of Noah: Noah was a good man, an upright man among his contemporaries, and he walked with God. 6:8

This should also answer 4

As for 3

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3. God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4


In the beginning of Genesis God give Dominion over the whole earth to Man.
God said,'Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of the heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.' Genesis 1:26

When man fell the whole of the earth fell with him!
For Jesus said "No servant is greater than his master" so it is with animals.

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5. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10


The sacrifice of the Pure Animals, Lambs, Doves ect. is a reference to the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Jesus.
The term sacrifice basically means "to give up something" For the Sins against God are many and only small part of the debt would be payed in doing so. *kinda like a house payment that never seems to go down lol*

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6. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6


Abram's wife Sarai had borne him no child, but she had an Egyptian slave-girl called Hagar. Genesis 16:1 So Sarai said to Abram,'Listen, now! Since Yahweh has kept me from having children, go to my slave-girl. Perhaps I shall get children through her.' And Abram took Sarai's advice.16:2

He went to Hagar and she conceived. And once she knew she had conceived, her mistress counted for nothing in her eyes.16:4
'Very well,' Abram said to Sarai,'your slave-girl is at your disposal. Treat her as you think fit.' Sarai accordingly treated her so badly that she ran away from her.16:6

This has nothing to do with your argument that God is Cruel and Violent

In fact, it proves he is Just.
The angle of Yahweh further said to her,'I shall make your descendants too numerous to be counted.'16:10

This is the same Promise he gave to Abram and Sarai about there own child that was yet to be born. So he is Just.

Also Sarai and Hagar are jealous women if I am reading the text right. God acts Justly when neither of them acted fairly to each other. Because Sarai and Abram Sinned against God by not keeping to the promise he made them that they would have a child and not waiting upon it. He places a curse on them in regards to Ishmael. Making him the very bane of a quiet home. I would say God is very Just.

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7. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8


Again this is not God's doing but Man, and his Sin.
And all men are sinful the "Just" and "Righteous" are no exception.

But I ask you what did the Angles do? In Genesis 19:11 they blind all those outside the house for Sinning so. Again Justice is done.

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9. Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26


When they had brought him outside, he was told,'Flee for you life. Do not look behind you or stop anywhere on the plain. Flee to the hills or you will be swept away.' 19:17
That was only a part of verse 17 but it makes the point. Do not look back or stop. It was a warning that you will die. It was also a test of faith. God was Just in giving the warning whether it was followed by her or not she heard the warning all the same and suffered the consequences.
However if you want to fully understand this text you must read the Old testament in the original Hebrew. In the original text it speaks about how the whole of the two cities and all the surrounding area was under Godís curse. The curse of its very nature was to destroy those with the sin of those two cities in their hearts. Lotís wife because she looked back did not get destroyed but because in the Hebrew text says she looked back longingly or with desire to be back in Sadom and its sin. And she did not separate her heart from the sin of the two cites and thus the curse because of that, and was destroyed.
Now remember what the Angel of the Lord said? ďDo not look back.Ē Let us bring it into context with this new information. I am sure all of us at one point or another has had a really bad relationship of some kind. And how people tell us do not go back to them, you will only get hurt. That was Godís warning to Lot and his family, only the wife felt a need to go back despite Godís warning. And she was destroyed because of it.
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10. God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7


Again it is a warning of what would follow if he did not give back Abrahamís Wife. Also God in his sense of Justice did not allow Abimelech to touch Sarah.
In truth, I tell you in this region at this period of time there was a Hurian custom. What it did was this. If you married and you suddenly died all your belongings would not go to your wife but your oldest son, however if you should adopt your wife into your family she would inherit everything so she would become your Wife-Sister. It was a way of making your wife a princess of your own people in a way and it was honored by many at this time. So what Abraham said is not a full lie, but a half-truth or half-lie depends how you look at it.
So do you still condemn God for a Human Sin? Even though God fixed it with no harm done to Abimelech or his people?

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11. Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14


This greatly distressed Abraham, because the slave-girl's child too was his son,21:11 but God said to him,' Do not distress yourself on account of the boy and your slave-girl. Do whatever Sarah says, For Isaac is the one through whom you name will be carried on.21:12 But the slave-girl's son I shall also make into a great nation, for he too is your child.21:13

And in the next several verses it would talk about how God was with him and protecting him well into adulthood.

Again I see God's Justice and Mercy.

Quote:
12. God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13

13. Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10


It happened sometime later that God put Abraham to the test.'Abraham, Abraham! He called. 'Here I am,' he replied.22:1

But the angle of Yahweh called to him from heaven.'Abraham, Abraham!' he said 'Here I am,' he replied.22:11 'Do not raise you hand against the boy,' the angle said.'Do not harm him, for now I know you fear God. You have not refused me your own beloved son.'


In the next few verses God gives many blessings to Abraham and his son Isaac for their faithfulness to him and for fearing him. Even though God asked something very difficult of Abraham and Isaac and was a close call as you say. God in his sense of Justice gave them many things in return.
But that is not the end, you see to fully understand this chapter you must understand the rite of sacrifice that was to God. It was a blood convenient with God which Abraham had made. As penitence for his Sins he would give up one of the pure of his herd to God. And the sacrifice of one would help to the forgiveness of all sins up until this point; however a new sacrifice would have to be made again and again because it was never enough for the complete sins of life. Now I am sure it must be a curious thing that a God would ask for the only heir to Abraham to die instead of a pure of his herd, however a normal human is hardly pure and it would not have worked. But this story is really a foreshadowing of the coming Jesus. Godís only son who he would send as the pure human sacrifice, it was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices God himself killed by man for manís sins forever. That is the true meaning behind this story.
As I said before to sacrifice means ďto give upĒ. So no matter what man as a race of people gives up be it wealth, power, sex, speaking, eating. It will never be enough, because no matter how great our sacrifice is it is insignificant to the greatness of the sins on humanity. But to give up God in the flesh in an act of unselfishness or hatred for others, is the greatest sacrifice humanity could give for he was the one perfect being in the whole of the earth. By doing so it ended forever the rite of sacrifice, for the blood covenant was completed. In his mercy no more sacrifices are needed to have forgiveness.


Quote:
14. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31


In my bible it says the Man "Raped" her and only fell in love with her after the deed...

Do we not do any less to a man who is caught after he has raped a woman? Indeed I say the man who has raped a woman should be sent to jail for life. For I know women who have been raped and nothing short of being sent to jail for a long time would make me satisfied.

The Brothers were rightfully enraged by this act. And without there fathers knowing they killed them.

So again this does not tell me that God is Violent or Cruel for he had nothing to do with this act. But God will see Justice done.

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15. "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5


They broke camp; a divine terror struck the towns round about, and no one pursed the sons of Jacob. 35:5

...sounds to me like God protected Jacob... from the evil that his sons had done. But God will serve Justice to them later through Joseph.

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16. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7


You are correct my bible does not say either. But judging from what I showed you in the past about God's Justice I would suspect it was wicked to warrant God's fury.

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17. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10


But Onan, knowing that the line would not count as his, spilt his seed on the ground every time he slept with his brotherís wife, to avoid providing offspring for his brother.38:9
This in fact was very shameful for it was custom and tradition. It was a welfare plan of its day in age, to protect the wife if her husband died. However Onan in his wickedness would not take care of his brotherís wife according to the laws of his people. The simple fact is that God loves culture and diversity, if he did not I do not doubt we would all be the same in everyway. And because God saw the wickedness of this brother to his own people and their culture which he defiled, God was filled with a righteous wrath.

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18. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

Thing is Judah did not know he slept with Tamar, but other then that what you say is true, but right after it says this.

But as she was being led off, she sent word to her father-in-law,'it was the owner of these who made me pregnant. Please verify', she said,' whose seal and cord and staff these are.'38:25 Judah recognized them and said,'She was right and I was wrong, since I did not give her to my son Shelah.' He had no further intercourse with her.38:26

Quote:
19. Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19


In another three days Pharaoh will lift up your head by hanging you on a gallows, and the birds will eat the flash off your bones.í40:19
First off it did not mention that Pharaoh will cut off his head, but to be hung.
It turned out exactly according to his interpretation: I was restored to my position, but the other man was hanged.í41:13
I only wished to correct your slight misreading of the bible. But I ask you this do you know why these two men were arrested? I shall tell you, they had displeased Pharaoh, and nothing else is said. So I do not know how God is responsible the Pharaohís decision.
Now Egyptians at this point in time believed dreams foretold the future. And for Joseph to interpret these dreams correctly would end up leading him to becoming the second most powerful man in the entire ancient world at the time. And as I said earlier God had his justice on the brothers of Joseph through Joseph being put higher then all of them, remember the eldest would inherit the riches of the father. But it was Joseph who would inherit the riches of Egypt, and be made lord over his brothers who should have been greater than him.
This truly is a great story of God and his Justice and Mercy because through Joseph and the dreams he would save all of Egypt and a huge area around Egypt from starvation. Godís mercy is shown.
I end it on this note.
The Old Testament as it is is incomplete. But through the New Testament all becomes complete. Through Godís Justice and Mercy and Blood of Jesus Christ we all saved. But Let me make it clear the Blood of Jesus is not enough to save you. You must believe as a whole the bible is where Godís treatment of his people, His Wrath, Justice, and Mercy are all told. You cannot believe because Jesus died for you and you only have to believe in him to receive eternal life. You must believe in the truth that is God and his promises of the future and past for eternal life with him to have any impact on you. Other wise he will cast you out in your eternal life to live in the sin of Sadom. In His Mercy He has given us all the chance to leave Sadom instead of just the one family. It is up to you to believe in what has come, and is to come.

The door is the there, the key is turned; only you can open.
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:18 pm† †Post subject: Reply with quote
God is neither just nor fair. To quote an age-old philosopher:

ďIs God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?Ē
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:07 pm† †Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, lets take this apart ....

Portland wrote:
God is neither Violent nor Cruel

For what he does you also could do. Would you consider yourself cruel then?

He in fact, is Just and Fair.

Quote:
1. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8


I have read this and agree on the action but you also take it out of context.
God Favors Abel, do you not favor your wife or girlfriend over others?


We aren't talking about a fallible person here, we are talking about God. Infallible, omniscient, omnipotent. Man was created in God's image, but that doesn't mean that God is flawed like man, does it?

You are claiming that God "plays favorites"; he likes some of his 'children' more then others. Alright, I'll take your word for it.

Portland wrote:
As for the context it says this

"But he did not look with favor on Cain and this offering, and Cain was very angry and downcast." Verse 4:5 Genesis

But if you look at the next two verses God looks upon Cain with favor and asks this.
"Yahweh asked Cain, 'Why are you angry and downcast? 4:6 if you are doing right, surely you ought to hold your head high! But if you are not doing right, Sin is crouching at the door hungry to get you. You can still master him.'4:7

This does not sound like a Cruel God to me. A Cruel God would not have helped Cain after he did the murder either but he did.


Yep, God doesn't understand Cain's jealousy. Oh wait, God is omniscient - he knew EXACTLY why Cain was angry and downcast, he simply asked Cain to confirm it because God knew Cain's heart, God knew that Cain was jealous of God's favor for Abel.

Portland wrote:
Look, today you drive me from the surface of the earth. I must hide from you, and be a restless wanderer on earth. Why, whoever comes across me will kill me! 4:14 'Very well, then,' Yahweh replied, "whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance.' So Yahweh put a mark on Cain, so that no one coming across him would kill him. 4:15

This sounds like Justice to me.


Maybe that is Justice, but, of course, God knew it would happen.

Portland wrote:
Quote:
2. God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17


Again the quote is good but again it is out of context.

Yahweh saw that human wickedness was great on earth and that his heart contrived nothing but wicked schemes all day long. Genesis 6:5 And Yahweh regretted having made human beings on earth and was grieved at heart.6:6 And Yahweh said,'I shall rid the surface of the earth of the human beings whom I created--human and animal, the creeping things and the birds of heaven--for I regret having made them.'6:7

So I ask you if you prick me do I not bleed.
And if, in fact, we are made in God's own image wouldnít you say: if we sin against him does he not grieve?
Would it not be better to say that this was in fact justice?

For if he was really Cruel and Violent he would have killed us all and be done with us. He in fact saved one whole family.


Saving a whole family is good - if it is your family. What about all the babies God drowned? and the mothers that loved those babies? What about the young sons who were the pride and joy of young fathers? He drowned all of them.

Why did he drown them? because they did exactly what he knew they would do. Seems rather cruel to me - you have an infant that you know is going to stick a fork into a light socket; do you stop the child or let them electrocute themselves "to learn a lesson". God chose the latter - he drowned all of humanity to teach Noah's family a lesson. Damn cruel sounding to me.

Portland wrote:

As for 3

Quote:
3. God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4


In the beginning of Genesis God give Dominion over the whole earth to Man.
God said,'Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of the heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.' Genesis 1:26

When man fell the whole of the earth fell with him!
For Jesus said "No servant is greater than his master" so it is with animals.


Explanation still doesn't refute that God is Cruel for making all of animal kinds future hinged on Man, particularly since he knew Man would fail him. If a psychopath tells you he will kill your children if you don't rob a bank for him - when you fail the task and the killer acts and murders your children, it still the killer who is cruel, not you for your failure.

Portland wrote:
Quote:
5. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10


The sacrifice of the Pure Animals, Lambs, Doves ect. is a reference to the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Jesus.
The term sacrifice basically means "to give up something" For the Sins against God are many and only small part of the debt would be payed in doing so. *kinda like a house payment that never seems to go down lol*


Yeah, that's cute, we chop animals in half to as a down payment. Damn bloody and particularly cruel, but then you aren't defending this demand from God either, now are you? Just dodging the subject.

Portland wrote:
Quote:
6. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6


....

This is the same Promise he gave to Abram and Sarai about there own child that was yet to be born. So he is Just.

Also Sarai and Hagar are jealous women if I am reading the text right. God acts Justly when neither of them acted fairly to each other. Because Sarai and Abram Sinned against God by not keeping to the promise he made them that they would have a child and not waiting upon it. He places a curse on them in regards to Ishmael. Making him the very bane of a quiet home. I would say God is very Just.


You consider it Just for God to tell a man and woman "you will have children" and then, without further explanation, time goes by, lots and lots of time (over thirteen years, because after Sarai handed over Hagar, it was over ten years before Hagar conceived). When the man and woman follow the customary traditions of their clan, which by the way, had been perfectly fine for the people to do for generations, and conceive a child through the slave girl they are breaking their word to this Capricious, Cruel and Jealous God.

The logical analysis here is that they were doing exactly what God knew they would do - God promised the child and waited for Sarai to hand over Hagar to Abram and for Abram to conceive on Hagar. God had no intention of allowing Sarai to conceive. The Cruelty here is the 'curse'. They were doing what God knew they would do.


Portland wrote:
Quote:
7. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8


Again this is not God's doing but Man, and his Sin.
And all men are sinful the "Just" and "Righteous" are no exception.

But I ask you what did the Angles do? In Genesis 19:11 they blind all those outside the house for Sinning so. Again Justice is done.


Here I do agree with you. The Angels blinded the men of Sodom, rescuing Lot and his family.

Portland wrote:
Now remember what the Angel of the Lord said? ďDo not look back.Ē Let us bring it into context with this new information. I am sure all of us at one point or another has had a really bad relationship of some kind. And how people tell us do not go back to them, you will only get hurt. That was Godís warning to Lot and his family, only the wife felt a need to go back despite Godís warning. And she was destroyed because of it.


That does not make it Just or any less Cruel. If a man pointed a gun at you and said "run, do not look back" and, while running away you looked back and he shot you, no one in his right mind would call that Just. However, the bible teaches us that God doing it is Just.


Portland wrote:

In the next few verses God gives many blessings to Abraham and his son Isaac for their faithfulness to him and for fearing him. Even though God asked something very difficult of Abraham and Isaac and was a close call as you say. God in his sense of Justice gave them many things in return.
But that is not the end, you see to fully understand this chapter you must understand the rite of sacrifice that was to God. It was a blood convenient with God which Abraham had made. As penitence for his Sins he would give up one of the pure of his herd to God. And the sacrifice of one would help to the forgiveness of all sins up until this point; however a new sacrifice would have to be made again and again because it was never enough for the complete sins of life. Now I am sure it must be a curious thing that a God would ask for the only heir to Abraham to die instead of a pure of his herd, however a normal human is hardly pure and it would not have worked. But this story is really a foreshadowing of the coming Jesus. Godís only son who he would send as the pure human sacrifice, it was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices God himself killed by man for manís sins forever. That is the true meaning behind this story.
As I said before to sacrifice means ďto give upĒ. So no matter what man as a race of people gives up be it wealth, power, sex, speaking, eating. It will never be enough, because no matter how great our sacrifice is it is insignificant to the greatness of the sins on humanity. But to give up God in the flesh in an act of unselfishness or hatred for others, is the greatest sacrifice humanity could give for he was the one perfect being in the whole of the earth. By doing so it ended forever the rite of sacrifice, for the blood covenant was completed. In his mercy no more sacrifices are needed to have forgiveness.


This is probably the most pathetic excuse I have read for cruelty - God said "kill your son for me .... No! wait, I was just kidding. Just seeing if you would do it." You call that Just? Do you have children? and if so, what would you think if someone pulled a prank like this on you? How much would it take to "buy your love back"?


Portland wrote:

Quote:
16. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7


You are correct my bible does not say either. But judging from what I showed you in the past about God's Justice I would suspect it was wicked to warrant God's fury.


Your suspicion is as valid and joey's. You haven't demonstrated anything other then you condone the Cruelty that God displays.

Quote:
17. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10


But Onan, knowing that the line would not count as his, spilt his seed on the ground every time he slept with his brotherís wife, to avoid providing offspring for his brother.38:9
This in fact was very shameful for it was custom and tradition. It was a welfare plan of its day in age, to protect the wife if her husband died. However Onan in his wickedness would not take care of his brotherís wife according to the laws of his people. The simple fact is that God loves culture and diversity, if he did not I do not doubt we would all be the same in everyway. And because God saw the wickedness of this brother to his own people and their culture which he defiled, God was filled with a righteous wrath.[/quote]

Abram, Sarai and Hagar already demonstrated that God didn't give a rat's ass about culture and custom, except when it comes to someone not listening to him. That sounds damn petulant. Abram had done right by his culture taking Hagar, but you said God was pissed that Abram didn't listen to him so he "cursed" him with through Ishmael.

But, because Onan cared for his brother and didn't want to impregnate his brother's wife (note, however, that Onan did take care of his brother's wife: "so whenever he lay with his brother's wife," so this was on going), you say that God now has a big thing for obeying culture.

So the "wickedness" here is not disobeying culture, it is disobeying God, because the bible shows that God doesn't always care about culture despite your claim.

Portland wrote:
Quote:
18. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

Thing is Judah did not know he slept with Tamar, but other then that what you say is true, but right after it says this.

...



Here is a case where justice did prevail, but it had nothing to do with God, only the wiles of a smart woman. But, I admit the cruelty that was to be precipitated was not of God either.

Portland wrote:
Quote:
19. Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19


... So I do not know how God is responsible the Pharaohís decision.


Technically, joey stated that his post was "Cruelties and Violence in Genesis". I agree that this doesn't point to God's responsibility for this particular cruelty.


Portland wrote:

The Old Testament as it is is incomplete. But through the New Testament all becomes complete. Through Godís Justice and Mercy and Blood of Jesus Christ we all saved. But Let me make it clear the Blood of Jesus is not enough to save you. You must believe as a whole the bible is where Godís treatment of his people, His Wrath, Justice, and Mercy are all told. You cannot believe because Jesus died for you and you only have to believe in him to receive eternal life. You must believe in the truth that is God and his promises of the future and past for eternal life with him to have any impact on you. Other wise he will cast you out in your eternal life to live in the sin of Sadom. In His Mercy He has given us all the chance to leave Sadom instead of just the one family. It is up to you to believe in what has come, and is to come.

The door is the there, the key is turned; only you can open.


Christians demand belief while denying facts. God is jealous, wrathful, vicious, as well as, merciful. God is capricious as is every god ever spoken about. The Judeo-Christian deity is no different then any other mono- or poly- theistic being man has ever told stories about.

All you have done here is shown you condone the viciousness of God because he is God; thus that makes it Just.
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TurretGunner
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:10 am† †Post subject: Evolution Versus Creationism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Your evangelical christian-fu is weak. You need practice.


No weaker than the evolution stuff. I have yet to see PROOF that one creature evolved from and particular other creature. When I see that I might believe some of it.

The same goes for the strict creation story.

Neither of them cn be proven by being reporoduced.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:18 pm† †Post subject: Re: Evolution Versus Creationism Reply with quote
TurretGunner wrote:

No weaker than the evolution stuff. I have yet to see PROOF that one creature evolved from and particular other creature. When I see that I might believe some of it.


Well, before i put a lot of effort into it, do you understand what evolution is and how it works?
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:21 am† †Post subject: Re: Evolution Versus Creationism Reply with quote
Quote:
Neither of them cn be proven by being reporoduced.


Uhh... isn't that part of how you scientifically prove something?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:58 pm† †Post subject: Re: Evolution Versus Creationism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TurretGunner wrote:

No weaker than the evolution stuff. I have yet to see PROOF that one creature evolved from and particular other creature. When I see that I might believe some of it.


Well, before i put a lot of effort into it, do you understand what evolution is and how it works?


The problem IS.... is that no matter HOW much proof you give people like our esteemed turretgunner here
He and his minions will not believe it

Mainly because it goes perpendicularly against what he's been told in the Big man in the Sky School
We all know that evolution is the main driving force that runs the living engine that is here on earth
and it is readily seen here every day...
that is if your mind is open to it
The fossil record
carbon dating
geology...
DNA comparisons
morphology and classification
EVERYTHING is based on the fundamentals of an evolutionary process
NOW ... I can SAY... that Oden or Fairies or Jehovah or any mythological being is responisble but nothing NOTHING explains what Scientists have learned over the last centuries since the Enlightenment
.... And they didn't call it that for any other reason
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Vinces
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:11 pm† †Post subject: IF Reply with quote
1.If creationsits are right we will all know the truth after we die.

2.If evolutionists are right we will all stop knowing anything when we die.

Just out of sheer optimism I am going to vote for #1
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