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Russell
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Hell Reply with quote
Why do so many people believe in hell? Specially the ones who say that we'll go to hell for not believing? But lets take a step back... Hell... firy place right? NOPE, that's a new term but in the old texts, it was the absense of god... ok... so.. Hell = where god is not... ok remember that... So the bible says this, and now... get this.. god is everywhere right? NOT everywhere except hell, but EVERYWHERE! Thus hell does not exist and anyone who goes there does not exist, so how can you suffer? Atheists believe that you do that anyway... so wow... big scare there... eiter way what we say is going to happen WILL happen... ok... now lets skip back to the part where the concept of Hell changed... and there was a time that 60 years at least, the NT was yet to be written about Jesus... word of mouth... and even AFTER it was written the concept of Hell changed... concept of Jesus could change... and I think that there is a show on the natural geographic channel about that this week... We should watch it!
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JesusLopezViejo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the idea of hell was introduced to strike fear in the the heart of man.

I don't believe in it.

I think when you die, you will decompose, feeding the maggots that will always remember you as a good meal. But you live on through them...metaphorically speaking.
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Oolon Colluphid
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Russell. Fellow 'newb' here...

Thought I'd also add to the topic some interesting points that was made by David Mills in his book "Atheist Universe".

...And I'm paraphrasing it here because it comes from an entire chapter called “The Myth Of Hell”. I apologize if it is to lengthy. I tried to keep it down to the basic points...
_____________________________________________________
The alleged existence of God has always been a fascinating topic of debate among theologians and secularists...
Common sense tells us that God would create Hell only if he had reason to inflict this punishment. In other words, God would not have decided arbitrarily that he would enjoy torturing humans (and fallen angels) and have created a Hell on that basis; for this scenario would imply that God behaved sadistically and brought this lake of fire into existence to satisfy his sick desires to perceive suffering and to hear screams of pain.

……It seems logical to conclude, then, that a deity would punish individuals in hell only if he had a reason for this action....

....the Church proclaims that the majority of human beings on Earth will suffer punishment after death in Hell’s lake of fire....
....The Christian Church wholeheartedly believes this “divine” biblical prophecy, which announces that the majority of humanity will follow the wrong road in life and will, as a result, end up in Hell instead of Heaven. We cannot possibly, then accept the hypothesis that Hell’s creation could have sought to benefit humanity; for a God- in his infinite wisdom- would have known in advance that the majority of humanity would fall victim to the gruesome torture chamber supposedly created for humanity’s own benefit!

...another question comes to mind: Did God create Hell to benefit humanity, not necessarily by deterring crime or sin, but by motivating humanity to repent and be saved by Jesus?

In addressing this question, we must recall that the essential purpose and result of an individual’s repentance is to escape Hell and go to Heaven. Because no one could burn in Hell if it had never been created in the first place, and because more of humanity will supposedly fall victim to Hell’s inferno than will repent because of Hell’s existence, we must conclude that Hell’s purpose was not to benefit humanity Therefore, we must answer No to the question....

....If the creation of Hell would not benefit humans, could its creation have sought to benefit God, through causing humans, out of fear, to abstain from activities which He found objectionable? In other words, was God literally trying to scare the hell out of people to pressure them into worshiping him?
Accepting this hypothesis as an accurate portrayal of God’s nature would, in my view, constitute a highly blasphemous assertion, in that this scenario would imply that God behaved far more fiendishly than Stalin and Hitler at the height of their World War II atrocities…….In order to get what they wanted, Stalin and Hitler likewise thought that it was necessary to torture and kill millions of people…If we conclude then, that God would create Hell to deter human behavior which He disliked- knowing beforehand that the majority of humanity would, as a result, suffer eternal torture- then we would be forced to label this god as evil and sadistic also, because He likewise would have inhumanely tortured individuals in order to accomplish His goals…..devout churchgoers are morally outraged by this unflattering characterization of their “loving God.” They invariably retort that God gave each person a “free will” to decide his own eternal destiny by accepting or rejecting Jesus as savior.
Church leaders invalidate their own argument, however, by simultaneously asserting that God is omniscient: He possesses total knowledge of the past, present, and future. Thus, the fact- that the majority of humanity would “forsake Jesus” (and would therefore suffer eternal roasting)- was recognized by God BEFORE He chose to create Hell, BEFORE He chose to create man, BEFORE He chose to give man an eternal soul, BEFORE He chose to make the eternal destinies of human souls contingent upon “accepting Jesus”, and Before He chose to create a devil to deceive man into forsaking Jesus!.......He, therefore would bear direct responsibility for any suffering brought upon humanity....

...The Christian Church maintains that “Jesus is God,” the loving and benevolent savior, who died on the cross to save mankind from eternal torment. But who, may I ask, is threatening to impose this eternal torment? The answer, of course, is the very same God! So Jesus, in effect, became victim of his own judgment when dying on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice- a blood ritual which Jesus offered himself so that He could forgive “sin.”…… If this universal and unconditional forgiveness is impossible for God to bestow, then He is not omnipotent; He is controlled and tossed about by circumstances superseding His authority. If He could forgive all “sinners” unconditionally, but refused, then He is not benevolent...Yet the biblical God is viewed as “merciful” because He “saves” a minority of human beings from his own hideous tortures, imposed upon humanity unasked and unwanted...

...Did God create Hell to separate the “lost souls” from the “saved”?
A cornerstone belief of the Christian faith is that no “sinful soul” may pass through Heaven’s pearly gates. Christians believe, moreover, that individuals who reject Jesus as Savior are “sinners” in God’s sight. Christians “logically” conclude, therefore, that individuals who reject Jesus cannot be admitted to Heaven, and must instead go to Hell….
If we pretend that god does exist and that He presides over a heavenly city which sin cannot enter, then we must recognize that two rational, non-hellish alternatives could separate the “lost souls” from the “saved.”

(1) God, after a “sinner’s” death, could return the “sinner’s soul” to a state of nonexistence, as it was before his birth.
(2) God, after a “sinner’s” death, could transport the “sinner’s soul” to a location away from heaven, but a location wherein he would not undergo pointless torture.

Even though an omnipotent God is “forced” to block from entering Heaven those “souls” who “forsook Jesus,” either of the above alternatives would achieve this goal. Sadistic and barbaric torture is not required to separate the “lost souls” from the “saved.”

So the question: “Did God create Hell to separate the lost souls from the saved?” we must reply: No, because this goal could have been achieved through more humane alternatives.....

....Did God create Hell to rehabilitate those individuals who, during their lives failed to obey biblical commandments?
The idea that Hell’s purpose is to rehabilitate “sinners” may be dismissed immediately, because the church tells us that Hell’s tortures continue forever.. No one is ever paroled. Even if we assume humorously that Hell does transform “sinners” into “saints”, this torture chamber would still serve no beneficial purpose, since the rehabilitated sinners would never return to society to benefit from their correction...

What... is the reason offered by the church for punishment in Hell?
Historically, the Christian Church, whether Catholic or Protestant, has consistently maintained that human beings are punished in Hell “because they lived in sin and rejected Jesus as their savior.”
Did you notice the words “lived” and “rejected”? They refer, as you can clearly see, to the past tense. In other words, this fiery punishment is directed, even according to the church, exclusively at the offenders’ past, and is not intended to have further beneficial effects. Punishment in Hell is therefore an end in itself, admittedly implemented for no beneficial purpose.
To put it simply, when Christianity’s defenders say that God punishes “sinners” in Hell “because they lived in sin and rejected Jesus,” these defenders of faith are saying nothing. Their arguments do not present a good reason for Hell’s existence...The unavoidable conclusion is that the “reason” for Hell’s torture is simply to torture- a purposeless, vengeful end in itself...

...As a last straw argument, religious leaders claim that we humans are foolish to question God’s Master Plan. “The fool hath said in his heart, ’There is no God.’” ...Just as a child may not understand why he is being disciplined by a loving parent, we too may be ignorant of God’s ultimate purpose. If God created Hell to punish humans and fallen angels, then He definitely had a good reason to do so.
The obvious fallacy in this “logic” is that it blindly assumes the conclusion that it sets out to prove. If you begin your argument by assuming (1) that God exists, (2) that He is the God of the Christian Bible (rather than the God of Islam or a Greek God),
(3)that He always behaves fairly, (4) that He is omnipotent and omniscient, (5) that He created the universe, Earth, mankind, Heaven and Hell, and (6) that all of His actions are purposeful, then of course your subsequent, “logically-deduced” conclusions will identically parrot these premises, which you have already accepted uncritically by blind faith. Such “logic” is identical to “proving Batman’s existence by citing the eyewitness testimony of Robin, The Boy Wonder. One’s conclusions are meaningless if the “supporting” premises are themselves articles of faith or figments of the imagination...

...Would you, as a loving father or mother, torture and burn your children at the stake for misbehaving?
Christians may argue that “unsaved” individuals are not “children of God.” But is it morally permissible, then, to torture children unrelated to you? I hope and trust that your answer is no....

Hell Exists

This conclusion means that God would rather torture humanity than to forgive humanity unconditionally. This conclusion carries the charge that God created Hell for no reason other than to inflict suffering. In this case, as Thomas Paine noted, the bible could more accurately be called The Word of a Demon than The Word of a God. If we proceed under the assumption that God does exist, then I firmly believe that He would be insulted by the blasphemous assertion that he created a hell.

Hell Does Not Exist

This conclusion means that God chose not to inflict sadistic and pointless torture upon the souls He created. This conclusion carries the charge that man, not God, created Hell. In my estimation, this conclusion is the more probable; for, as Robert Ingersoll stated, the myth of hell represents “all the meanness, all the revenge, all the selfishness, all the cruelty, all the hatred, all the infamy of which the heart of man is capable.” God was indeed created in man’s own image.
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Tesla
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Hell Reply with quote
Russell wrote:
Why do so many people believe in hell? Specially the ones who say that we'll go to hell for not believing? But lets take a step back... Hell... firy place right? NOPE, that's a new term but in the old texts, it was the absense of god... ok... so.. Hell = where god is not... ok remember that... So the bible says this, and now... get this.. god is everywhere right? NOT everywhere except hell, but EVERYWHERE! Thus hell does not exist and anyone who goes there does not exist, so how can you suffer? Atheists believe that you do that anyway... so wow... big scare there... eiter way what we say is going to happen WILL happen... ok... now lets skip back to the part where the concept of Hell changed... and there was a time that 60 years at least, the NT was yet to be written about Jesus... word of mouth... and even AFTER it was written the concept of Hell changed... concept of Jesus could change... and I think that there is a show on the natural geographic channel about that this week... We should watch it!


I don't believe in hell or heaven, but when I think about it for a second I get shivers down my back like, "wow if I'm wrong it'll hurt like hell", but when I think for two seconds, I see that it's a load of bollocks. But I can see how weak-minded or conservative people (not saying conservatives are weak minded!) can be sucked into the idea of it.
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THEUNKNOWNMAN
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JesusLopezViejo should like this quote...

"I believe man made god out of ignorance and fear,
cuz if god made man why in the hell did he put us here?"


Peoples' Army
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JesusLopezViejo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
THEUNKNOWNMAN wrote:
JesusLopezViejo should like this quote...

"I believe man made god out of ignorance and fear,
cuz if god made man why in the hell did he put us here?"


Peoples' Army


dead prez...represent...

red black and green

red is for the blood in my arm
black is for the gun in my palm
and green is for the chronic that grows natural, like locks on africans.
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JoeysAngyl
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I believe in good and evil, wouldn't really call it heaven and hell though. Heaven was created as a way to control the actions of the masses and hell was just another step into mass control.
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Guido
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good and Evil... these are cultural variants. Just like religion itself. You can do something somewhere - and it’s considered fine, but another place - it may be taboo. Good and evil is an easy, black and white if you will, way of looking at events in the physical universe. I find it much more effective not to look at things as good and evil, because these variables don’t really exist, they’re just another produce of the human mind trying to explain something ineffectively.
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Oolon Colluphid
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guido wrote:
Good and Evil... these are cultural variants. Just like religion itself. You can do something somewhere - and it’s considered fine, but another place - it may be taboo. Good and evil is an easy, black and white if you will, way of looking at events in the physical universe. I find it much more effective not to look at things as good and evil, because these variables don’t really exist, they’re just another produce of the human mind trying to explain something ineffectively.


So true.

Nice explaination.....I don't think I can come close, but....

For another example, I don't think that if you went to Iran they would agree that they are "an axis of evil". In fact, they would turn and say that America was the "evil" ones. It's a human perspective formed of opinions on right and wrong.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paradise Lost quote coming up;

"The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"
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Crucifucks
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know why any rght minded person would believe in hell. Think about this logically.

Christians believe in hell. Jews do not. There is no mention of hell in the old testament. Somewhere along the line, somebody pulled the whole "Hell" idea out of their ass.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Crucifucks wrote:
I don't know why any rght minded person would believe in hell. Think about this logically.


Well if you're going to go down that road, then i don't know why any right minded person would believe in any form of the supernatural at all. It's all just as absurd as hell.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What would you prefer, hell, or complete nothingness??

I'm gonna have to go for hell.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
What would you prefer, hell, or complete nothingness??

I'm gonna have to go for hell.


In that i'd almost prefer complete nothingness over the pain associated with life, i can certainly say that i prefer it over eternal suffering
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Guido
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
What would you prefer, hell, or complete nothingness??

I'm gonna have to go for hell.


Nothingness, for sure. Seeing that that is what I’m lookin’ forward to when I die anyway. Why, by Thor's beard, would you rather an eternal existence of torture and agony? Confused
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