Register :: Log in :: Profile :: Mail   


Hell
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    LVC Home // Atheism Versus Religion
Author Message
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Amin wrote:
"I don't think it really matters - symbolic, or literal, they're still nonsensical."

look at ancient egypt for example, absolutely amazing the knowledge they symbolized


And, what knowledge is that?

Quote:

very much ahead of their time, i wouldnt judge so quickly on the religious books as they seem similar


Demonstrate this.
Back to top
Amin
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 85
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"And, what knowledge is that?"

have you not researched it? the astronomy, the pyramids and constructions amoung so many other things

here is a a very good site on this subject Link: http://www.jawest.net/

i would recommend researching into the matter before judging
Back to top
Lester
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2774

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oolon Colluphid wrote:
Lester wrote:

1. I have no problem with it being self-serving.

2. You misunderstand, it is not my wish that pain extends beyond death, it is just I would rather pain to extend beyond death than for NOTHING to extend beyond death, because I'd like to exist as long as possible, even if it is in agony. It's just my choice out of the two, of course I would rather we all lived in a faerieland with hugs and puppies after we died, but I was positing a hypothetical.


1. You must be a conservative.

2. This just shows that instead of dealing with the natural reality of death, you would rather adhere to a belief that equates to that of leprechauns and goblins. It’s held dogmatically, not rationally.

"Is it in the interest of man to be a child all his life?"


1. I'm selfish, but also smart, if everyone was TRULY selfish they would realise that what is best for everyone is best for them, in theoretical communism, you will never go hungry or shelterless, in theoretical capitilism, it is quite possible to do these things. Hence I swing to the left, FAR left.

2. Ahhh but thats just the thing, we don't know the natural reality of death, there is no proof that all you get after you die is complete nothingness. Again though, it was a hypothetical question, which would you prefer to be true, if you had to choose for yourself, I would choose eternal suffering over complete nothingness, because at least I qwould still exist, and being self-serving, thats high up on my to do list.
Back to top
Docsmitter
Known Associate
Known Associate


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 308
Location: CA LE FOR NYE YAY

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Crucifucks wrote:
I don't know why any rght minded person would believe in hell. Think about this logically.

Christians believe in hell. Jews do not. There is no mention of hell in the old testament. Somewhere along the line, somebody pulled the whole "Hell" idea out of their ass.


If everyone was logical then there wouldnt be religion or starvation or war or racism.
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Amin wrote:
"And, what knowledge is that?"

have you not researched it? the astronomy, the pyramids and constructions amoung so many other things


I'm well aware of the engineering and mathematical acheivements of the egyptians.

What i am not aware of is how that plays into their religion.

And you said the same goes for religious texts...do you have any evidence?
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:

2. Ahhh but thats just the thing, we don't know the natural reality of death, there is no proof that all you get after you die is complete nothingness.


It's deductive reasoning.

"You" are the thinking you.
The thinking you arises from the physical processes in your brain.

When you're dead, the physical processes stop.
The thinking you stops.
"You" stop.

It's like turning off a computer, and asking what happens to all the computer programs that were in memory.

Quote:

Again though, it was a hypothetical question, which would you prefer to be true, if you had to choose for yourself, I would choose eternal suffering over complete nothingness, because at least I qwould still exist, and being self-serving, thats high up on my to do list.


How is it self-serving to suffer for eternity?

And...why would you want to exist? I mean, i see the virtues of existence, certainly. But i don't think that there's any point in existing if it's only going to be filled with pain and misery.
Back to top
Lester
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2774

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:


It's deductive reasoning.

"You" are the thinking you.
The thinking you arises from the physical processes in your brain.

When you're dead, the physical processes stop.
The thinking you stops.
"You" stop.

It's like turning off a computer, and asking what happens to all the computer programs that were in memory.



We don't have a full and complete understanding of how the human brain works, we know what vague areas do but we in no way can make assumptions that ALL we are is the physical processes in our brains. You have to assume that we are nothing more than pieces of meat for your deductive reasoning to work. Now I'm not saying we're NOT just pieces of meat, but I'd like to think so.

Besides, again, it was a hypothetical, choose either HELL or NOTHINGNESS, so there is another option besides just snuffing it.

Quote:
How is it self-serving to suffer for eternity?

And...why would you want to exist? I mean, i see the virtues of existence, certainly. But i don't think that there's any point in existing if it's only going to be filled with pain and misery.


Suffer for eternity OVER not existing at all, a truly selfish person will make sacrifice if they know in the long run they will gain.

Existence in itself is the point, are you saying that people whom live in ethiopia(cliche I know, but bear with me) and live all their lives in pain and suffering because of disease, and never know love from their family because all of them are dead, do you think THEIR lives are meaningless?? Everything you do impacts everything else, as long as you exist anyways.
Back to top
Amin
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 85
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
"What i am not aware of is how that plays into their religion. "

their gods symbolized the natural and scientific laws of the world

the books i must research more first, i admit my ignorance on that
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Amin wrote:
"What i am not aware of is how that plays into their religion. "

their gods symbolized the natural and scientific laws of the world


Yes, yes they did.
They symbolized the egyptians' ignorance of such, not their knowledge
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:


We don't have a full and complete understanding of how the human brain works, we know what vague areas do but we in no way can make assumptions that ALL we are is the physical processes in our brains. You have to assume that we are nothing more than pieces of meat for your deductive reasoning to work.


Which, as it so happens, is a completely reasonable assumption, given the evidence at hand.

Unless you know something that i don't.

Quote:

Now I'm not saying we're NOT just pieces of meat, but I'd like to think so.


Unfortunately for you and i, the universe doesn't care about what we think. The truth about the nature of our consciousness has nothing to do with what you'd like it to be; wishful thinking is futile.

Quote:

Suffer for eternity OVER not existing at all, a truly selfish person will make sacrifice if they know in the long run they will gain.


And that's what i mean - in hell, you can't gain in the long run.

Quote:

Existence in itself is the point, are you saying that people whom live in ethiopia(cliche I know, but bear with me) and live all their lives in pain and suffering because of disease, and never know love from their family because all of them are dead, do you think THEIR lives are meaningless??


No, i don't. But then,they don't spend ALL their time suffering...just a whole lot of it. They still have hope.

In hell, that's all you do - suffer. Pain without end. No hope.

Quote:

Everything you do impacts everything else, as long as you exist anyways.


Not when you're in hell.

Now, that's absurd, of course, but then, the concept of hell is, itself, absurd.
Back to top
Lester
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2774

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Which, as it so happens, is a completely reasonable assumption, given the evidence at hand.


But it's still an assumption, as is the assumption that we're not, which is also completely reasonable, giving the evidence at hand. The only way the assumption of us being more than just pieces of meat becomes unreasonable is when it forces us to live in certain ways or support inhumane things.

Quote:

Unfortunately for you and i, the universe doesn't care about what we think. The truth about the nature of our consciousness has nothing to do with what you'd like it to be; wishful thinking is futile.


Ever heard of affirmations? If not, have you ever heard of Scott Douglas? He's the guy who writes the Dilbert cartoons, he attributes all of his success to affirmations, the simple exercise of writing out your goals ten times a day. Belief does impact existence.

Even if it doesn't, there is no evidence to prove we're pieces of meat or not, so I can assume whatever makes me comfortable, cause quite frankly, it makes me more comfortable.

Also, it's still irrelevant to the main point, because it was a hypothetical, it doesn't matter how absurd it was or wasn't, it was just a question, like, "If you could go back in time and kill hitler, would you?" Of course we can't go back in time, but the answer to the questions still sheds light on our personalities and lives.

Quote:

And that's what i mean - in hell, you can't gain in the long run.


It's not that you can't, as long as you exist there is the possibility of gaining, when you stop existing however, it is impossible to improve your situation.

Quote:

No, i don't. But then,they don't spend ALL their time suffering...just a whole lot of it. They still have hope.

In hell, that's all you do - suffer. Pain without end. No hope.


Like I said before, you still have hope in hell, that what makes it so bad, the knowledge that there are people up there in heaven and that you *could* be one of them.

Quote:

Not when you're in hell.

Now, that's absurd, of course, but then, the concept of hell is, itself, absurd.


Yes when your in hell, all existence impacts all other existence, full stop.
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
exton wrote:
Which, as it so happens, is a completely reasonable assumption, given the evidence at hand.


But it's still an assumption, as is the assumption that we're not, which is also completely reasonable, giving the evidence at hand. The only way the assumption of us being more than just pieces of meat becomes unreasonable is when it forces us to live in certain ways or support inhumane things.


All conclusions are assumptions, in that you can never be certain.

But certainty isn't necessary for reasonable deduction.

Instead, what takes precedence is the logic and the evidence behind an idea.

Hence, it's a *reasonable* assumption to believe that we are meat machines, in that that's supported by evidence and reasoning, whereas it is *unreasonable* to believe that there is something immaterial (ie: a soul) to the human mind, as that is contradicted by evidence and is not supported by sound reasoning.

Quote:


Quote:

Unfortunately for you and i, the universe doesn't care about what we think. The truth about the nature of our consciousness has nothing to do with what you'd like it to be; wishful thinking is futile.


Ever heard of affirmations? If not, have you ever heard of Scott Douglas? He's the guy who writes the Dilbert cartoons, he attributes all of his success to affirmations, the simple exercise of writing out your goals ten times a day. Belief does impact existence.


Scott Adams you mean?

Positive reenforcement works in as much as it allows you to focus and act.
It does not affect reality in any other sense.

For example, no matter how strongly you believe in unicorns, they still aren't going to exist.

Quote:

Even if it doesn't, there is no evidence to prove we're pieces of meat or not, so I can assume whatever makes me comfortable, cause quite frankly, it makes me more comfortable.


You cannot *prove* anything in life, and so your requirement of doing so is unreasonable.

While nothing can prove the meat-machine idea for certain, there's actually alot of evidence suggesting that it is correct. And that's really the best that you can do.


Quote:

Quote:

And that's what i mean - in hell, you can't gain in the long run.


It's not that you can't, as long as you exist there is the possibility of gaining, when you stop existing however, it is impossible to improve your situation.


This isn't just any existence we're talking about. We're talking about existence in hell.

In hell, it is impossible to gain, as a matter of definition. You cannot improve your situation once you're in hell; that's what hell is all about.


Quote:

Like I said before, you still have hope in hell, that what makes it so bad, the knowledge that there are people up there in heaven and that you *could* be one of them.


Hope in hell? Hope of what?

There's nothing you have hope for in hell.

Quote:

Yes when your in hell, all existence impacts all other existence, full stop.


How can your existence affect anyone else's when you're in hell?

That is, i'm not ruling it out, but i can't think of anything.
Back to top
Lester
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2774

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What eveidence is there that all we are is meat machines? Just because thats all we can detect? By that logic in the middle ages there was no such thing as electricity...

Yes Scott Adams haha woops, and he tried this out on things that couldn't possibly be affected by his focus, like making money on stocks. He was a skeptic till he tried it, and gonna give it a go, but i keep forgetting Razz

I can prove one plus one is two... and you and I both know what I meant by proof, same sort of proof as used in a trial, there is none for the meat machine idea.

I jusy said hope of getting into heaven, I mean you know your not going to, but you can still hope, and thats what makes hell so bad, that there IS a heaven.

Well, if we're saying Hell exists, then I assume we're saying Lucifer exists, and he might talk to you, and get ideas for affecting the world above, or someone might commune with you from the ether. We have a hell, we might as well assume hell related things are the norm too. Plus, all energy is constant, and hell is permanently getting more souls, it has to get the heat from somewhere...
Back to top
joeyjock
Known Associate
Known Associate


Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 227
Location: Fort Lauderdale

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hell certainly does exist...
It exists in the minds of those who believe that it just might be there possibly waiting for them

Confused When you come to think about it --- isn't it a great controlling device? If you don't do exactly what I tell you to do --- you're going to rot in hell for all of eternity Shocked
If you ever get a chance take a look at some of the great churches of Europe...the walls are covered in the most gory disgusting details of people suffering in hell...Why? Because they love their flock? NO... because they WANT you scared
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
What eveidence is there that all we are is meat machines? Just because thats all we can detect? By that logic in the middle ages there was no such thing as electricity...


Not quite.

I can certainly demonstrate the existence of electricity using medieval technology.

They didn't lack the means to figure this stuff out. They lacked the insight and ingenuity. It was their mindset that was limited, not their resources.

Quote:

Yes Scott Adams haha woops, and he tried this out on things that couldn't possibly be affected by his focus, like making money on stocks. He was a skeptic till he tried it, and gonna give it a go, but i keep forgetting Razz


And i guarentee that if you test it scientifically, it won't work. Look up "cloud busting" for people who are under a similar delusion.

Quote:

I can prove one plus one is two... and you and I both know what I meant by proof, same sort of proof as used in a trial, there is none for the meat machine idea.


"Proof" in a court of law is not the same as "proof" in a scientific (or mathematical) sense. They are very different.

One plus one is two as a matter of definition, not as a matter of an observation of nature.

Quote:

I jusy said hope of getting into heaven, I mean you know your not going to, but you can still hope, and thats what makes hell so bad, that there IS a heaven.


I don't agree. Even if i thought there was a hell, but no heaven, i would STILL dread hell. I'd dread it just as much.

Quote:

Well, if we're saying Hell exists, then I assume we're saying Lucifer exists, and he might talk to you, and get ideas for affecting the world above,


Except he doesn't spend his time talking to the tortured souls. He spends his time getting more souls to torture.

Quote:

or someone might commune with you from the ether.


Seances and talking with the dead is an entirely other matter. If such things happened, i'd agree that you could affect the outside world while in hell.
However, i do not concede that such things happen.

Quote:

We have a hell, we might as well assume hell related things are the norm too.


That's not a reasonable assumption, in that "the norm" is not supernatural. Hell is supernatural in its entirety.

Quote:

Plus, all energy is constant, and hell is permanently getting more souls, it has to get the heat from somewhere...


Souls are not made of energy, and that can easily be proven, since energy can be measured.

Moreover, where the supernatural is concerned, energy is not constant. God and satan don't have to abide by the laws of physics; if they did, they would be no different than you or i.
Back to top
Post new topic   Reply to topic    LVC Home // Atheism Versus Religion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Add to My Yahoo! Add to Google

Politics Blogs - Blog Top Sites Politics Blogs Politics