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Turk
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
As a progressive, i can tell you unequivically that progressivism has nothing to do with scrapping freedoms.
Of course why is it always the progressives that want to change the constitution to fit their agenda?
Bush is a progressive he thinks that the constitution should be undermined to suit his policies
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bush isn't a progressive.

Seriously, do you know what progressive means?

And of course people want to change the constitution to fit their "agenda". Do you think they'd want to change it to fit someone else's? That wouldn't make sense.

Perhaps you're of the school of thought that the constitution is perfect, and shouldn't be changed. If so, you're missing the point of a constitutional government, and the reason we have a constitution.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Bush isn't a progressive.

Seriously, do you know what progressive means?

And of course people want to change the constitution to fit their "agenda". Do you think they'd want to change it to fit someone else's? That wouldn't make sense.

Perhaps you're of the school of thought that the constitution is perfect, and shouldn't be changed. If so, you're missing the point of a constitutional government, and the reason we have a constitution.
Progressives either left or right have an agenda to progress away from the constitution
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Uhm...no. That's not what it means.

Progressivism is exactly what it sounds like: progress. Bettering society, and humankind as a whole. The idea is that living conditions aren't as good as they could be, and so we should improve things.

That's what progressivism is.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Uhm...no. That's not what it means.

Progressivism is exactly what it sounds like: progress. Bettering society, and humankind as a whole. The idea is that living conditions aren't as good as they could be, and so we should improve things.

That's what progressivism is.
If the constitution was followed and used there would be no reason for progression
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The constitution is a set of laws and guidelines for the organization and operation of a government and society. It cannot tell you what you should do do with that society.

And, like i said, if you think that the constitution should never be changed, then you don't really understand the constitution or the reason that we have it.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
The constitution is a set of laws and guidelines for the organization and operation of a government and society. It cannot tell you what you should do do with that society.

And, like i said, if you think that the constitution should never be changed, then you don't really understand the constitution or the reason that we have it.
it was set up to keep us free individuals and limit the power of government
and it was meant to last a long time
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turk wrote:

and it was meant to last a long time


And how does it do that?

By changing.
As times change, so must our institutions.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Turk wrote:

and it was meant to last a long time


And how does it do that?

By changing.
As times change, so must our institutions.

No cause if you change it you risk losing the liberties that you benefit from
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You do know that the constitution was written, and explicitly intended, to be able to be changed, right?

Would you suggest that we revoke the right of women to vote? Shall we stop banning slavery? Should we allow the state to violate citizens' constitutional rights (they could do that, before it was ammended)?

Should we get rid of the bill of rights? That's a bunch of ammendments, you know. It's not part of the original constitution.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
As a progressive, i can tell you unequivically that progressivism has nothing to do with scrapping freedoms.

What about the freedom to retain the fruits of one's labor? What about the freedom to succeed or fail on one's on merits? What about the freedom to speak, even when others consider it hateful? What about the freedom to own a gun? How about the freedom to choose your child's school? You may be big on freedom, but lib... er, "progressives?" Not so much.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

What about the freedom to retain the fruits of one's labor?


I have no issues with a person retaining an amount of money that is proportional to their net contribution to civilization.

Beyond that, i make no guarentees.

Quote:

What about the freedom to succeed or fail on one's on merits?


I don't know about that failure part. I mean, if a person wants to fail, that's fine by me. But i think we ought to work towards a reasonable bare minimum below which nobody must be required to live.

And success? Nobody claims that people shouldn't get what they deserve (or merit). The point of contention is what qualifies as deserving.

Quote:

What about the freedom to speak, even when others consider it hateful?


I consider freedom of speech to be almost absolute.

Quote:

What about the freedom to own a gun?


I've never suggested banning guns. In fact, i've explicitly stated that i don't think it's a good idea to do so.

Quote:

How about the freedom to choose your child's school?


People have no freedoms regarding controlling other people's lives. I think parents have discretion in their childrens lives in as much as it benefits their children; again, a bare minimum sort of thing.

Should they get to choose how their children receive education? Sure. Should they be allowed to make their children believe anything they want? No, i don't think so.

And, in case you weren't aware, parents presently are allowed to choose where their cihldren go to school.

Quote:

You may be big on freedom, but lib... er, "progressives?" Not so much.


Apparently, you don't know much about what it means to be progressive.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

What about the freedom to retain the fruits of one's labor?

I have no issues with a person retaining an amount of money that is proportional to their net contribution to civilization.

I think we're all willing to fund government. Where many of us would like to draw the line is when we are working to earn money for others who have simply opted out of doing so, precisely because they know that government will confiscate our wages to supplement their sloth.

exton wrote:
Beyond that, i make no guarentees.

Not to the earners, no; but you seem willing to make guarantees to those suckling at the government's teats.

exton wrote:
But i think we ought to work towards a reasonable bare minimum below which nobody must be required to live.

Who is requiring them to live that way?

exton wrote:
And success? Nobody claims that people shouldn't get what they deserve (or merit). The point of contention is what qualifies as deserving.

I've always thought the market decided the value of my contributions.

exton wrote:
Quote:
What about the freedom to speak, even when others consider it hateful?

I consider freedom of speech to be almost absolute.

Progressives champion "hate" statutes. That's not freedom of speech. (Hell, it's not even freedom of thought.)

exton wrote:
Quote:
What about the freedom to own a gun?

I've never suggested banning guns. In fact, i've explicitly stated that i don't think it's a good idea to do so.

But you didn't write that you don't want to strip away our freedoms, you wrote that progressives don't. I think you're wrong in these cases and many more. (FWIW, I also believe that conservatives want to strip away freedoms, just different freedoms.)

exton wrote:
And, in case you weren't aware, parents presently are allowed to choose where their cihldren go to school.

Due to the power and influence of teachers' unions in public schools, I and other parents in most parts of the country lack sufficient freedom to control the way our children are educated. I have a gifted child stuck in a failing school. She has been denied entrance into the local advanced/gifted magnet school because of the racial mix at her current school. She is being denied a better education because of her skin color.

exton wrote:
Quote:
You may be big on freedom, but lib... er, "progressives?" Not so much.

Apparently, you don't know much about what it means to be progressive.

Of course not. I disagree with you, so I must be ignorant. Rolling Eyes
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

What about the freedom to retain the fruits of one's labor?

I have no issues with a person retaining an amount of money that is proportional to their net contribution to civilization.

I think we're all willing to fund government. Where many of us would like to draw the line is when we are working to earn money for others who have simply opted out of doing so, precisely because they know that government will confiscate our wages to supplement their sloth.


Suppose we had people who refused to work, even though they could. And suppose that they refused to reform, even if offered assistance in getting on their feet. What do we do with such people?

Do we let them die?
I wouldn't be opposed to it, personally.

But what about in reality, where such people are, for all intents and purposes, non-existent?

Are there people who can and do try to abuse a system meant for helping the legitimately needy? Yes. And should they be forced to support themselves, or die? Perhaps.

But does that mean that we have a bunch of freeloaders sucking us dry? Are there a bunch of people who simply refuse to work, at all costs? No. (And if there are, i have no issues with disposing of them). But more importantly, do we stop helping people because of the potential for abuse? No.

Quote:

exton wrote:
Beyond that, i make no guarentees.

Not to the earners, no; but you seem willing to make guarantees to those suckling at the government's teats.


I don't make broad generalizations about the working class. I try not to make broad generalizations about any class, really.

As i've said, if there exist such people who absolutely are unwilling to work, i have no issues with ridding ourselves of them.

But that is, by and large, a mythical sort of person.

Quote:

exton wrote:
But i think we ought to work towards a reasonable bare minimum below which nobody must be required to live.

Who is requiring them to live that way?


Those who would let them die of poverty. Live homeless. Taht sort of thing.

Quote:

exton wrote:
And success? Nobody claims that people shouldn't get what they deserve (or merit). The point of contention is what qualifies as deserving.

I've always thought the market decided the value of my contributions.


No. The market determines what other people are willing to give you for your services. It does not measure how much your services actually contribute to the well-being of society.

Quote:

exton wrote:

I consider freedom of speech to be almost absolute.

Progressives champion "hate" statutes. That's not freedom of speech. (Hell, it's not even freedom of thought.)

exton wrote:
Quote:
What about the freedom to own a gun?

I've never suggested banning guns. In fact, i've explicitly stated that i don't think it's a good idea to do so.

But you didn't write that you don't want to strip away our freedoms, you wrote that progressives don't. I think you're wrong in these cases and many more. (FWIW, I also believe that conservatives want to strip away freedoms, just different freedoms.)


Then you're right, and i wasn't careful with my words. Some progressives do wish to take away those liberties.

But taking away those liberties is not a part of what progressivism is about.


Quote:

Due to the power and influence of teachers' unions in public schools, I and other parents in most parts of the country lack sufficient freedom to control the way our children are educated. I have a gifted child stuck in a failing school. She has been denied entrance into the local advanced/gifted magnet school because of the racial mix at her current school. She is being denied a better education because of her skin color.


I'm inclined to agree with you that that's not okay.

My solution wouldn't be to stop racial mix..whatever,though. My solution would be to fix the school system.

Obviously, that won't help you though, not in the time that your daughter has to work with.

Quote:

Of course not. I disagree with you, so I must be ignorant.


Or i'm ignorant.
But, in that i cannot read your mind (but i can read mine), i figure the most sensible choice is to assume that i'm right until i'n legitimately convinced otherwise. Starting off with the assumption that i'm wrong just doesn't seem like a productive way to go about things.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Suppose we had people who refused to work, even though they could.

If this was not the case, why has welfare reform been so successful? If everyone on government assistance had no choice, welfare reform would have been a failure. Yet here we are with millions of people off the welfare rolls and working to support themselves and their families, because we didn't give them the option of NOT doing so.

exton wrote:
Do we let them die?
I wouldn't be opposed to it, personally.

I'm not suggesting that we do nothing to help those who are truly in need, I'm stating that (A) the constitution does not empower the federal government to do it for us, (B) I do not think they should force anyone to help others by taking the money one person earns and giving it to someone else, and (c) I do not believe the government is the best actor in this space.

Lastly, whether we're talking about people who are actively avoiding work or people who aren't willing to overcome the hurdles they perceive between themselves and gainful employment only matters insofar as we may want to take reasonable actions to help them overcome said hurdles. If it helps you to think of them as situationally rather than inherently lazy, fine.

exton wrote:
Who is requiring them to live that way?

Those who would let them die of poverty. Live homeless. Taht sort of thing. [/quote]
That presumes that nothing they did, no choice they made, was instrumental in putting them in the situation in which they live. I don't buy that, and I doubt you do either.

exton wrote:
I've always thought the market decided the value of my contributions.

No. The market determines what other people are willing to give you for your services. It does not measure how much your services actually contribute to the well-being of society.[/quote]
News flash: Other people are society.

exton wrote:
Quote:
What about the freedom to own a gun?

I've never suggested banning guns. In fact, i've explicitly stated that i don't think it's a good idea to do so.
Quote:
But you didn't write that you don't want to strip away our freedoms, you wrote that progressives don't. I think you're wrong in these cases and many more. (FWIW, I also believe that conservatives want to strip away freedoms, just different freedoms.)

Then you're right, and i wasn't careful with my words. Some progressives do wish to take away those liberties.

But taking away those liberties is not a part of what progressivism is about.

Sorry, I can't let that slide. You can't get to where progressives want to take society without doing serious damage to liberty. Period. That's why I'm a libertarian. I'd love to live in a world where nobody loses, but this isn't that world, and the reality is that when you play God with safety nets for people who make bad choices you merely enable those bad choices; you get more of what caused the problems by removing the negative consequences for those making those choices. In the end, you have to be willing to let life be life; warts and all. You have to be willing to let people fail, in order to challenge the maximum number to succeed.

If you haven't already, I would strongly urge you to read Thomas Sowell's "The Vision of the Annointed." It's an excellent book, and I think you'd gain a lot from reading it. If nothing else, you'd get a good look at a lot of strong arguments against progressive ideas. (And hey, maybe one or two of them would change your mind...) Cool

http://www.amazon.com/Vision-A.....046508995X
You can get it, used and shipped to your door, for under $7.00.

(Good discussion. Thanks for your civility.) Very Happy
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