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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Raibeart wrote:
Lester wrote:
See, theres another big problem with a war on terror, terror is not suitably defined.


Hmmmmm,
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0112-02.htm


I liked Starship Titanic better.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Raibeart wrote:
Lester wrote:
See, theres another big problem with a war on terror, terror is not suitably defined.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0112-02.htm

Clever, but maybe too clever, by half. Wink

Here's the problem with so much cleverness combined with so little reason...

Quote:
"We're going to bomb murder wherever it lurks. We are going to seek out the murderers and the would-be murderers, and bomb any government that harbors murderers."

If we were faced with a global network that was intent on murdering people with whom they disagreed, if murder were the best word to define the danger the world faces, the statement above would fit perfectly.

Of course, we have a better word for it; terrorism.

And for what it's worth, I think terrorism is quite suitably defined for most of us. It's only a few people who want to assert a moral equivalence between terrorists who arbitrarily kill random, innocent civilians and soldiers who specifically target those who commit terrorist acts.

The phrase "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is meaningless, because a person can be both, simultaneously. He can see himself as fighting for freedom, fighting for a noble goal, and he can be using terrorism to achieve that goal; in which case his goal becomes moot. He needs to be stopped.
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Raibeart
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Aint it funny that the "war on terror" is now predominantly against the guys that your country helped train, arm and finance in Afghanistan? How come these guys were "freedom fighters" when they were killing and mutilating Red Army soldiers and downing Soviet helicopter gunships, but when they go to Iraq and fight with other Sunni's (Wahhabists) against the Coalition forces, they are automaticaly "terrorists"?
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
First, the history of our meddling in foreign affairs is rife with examples of such unintended consequences. If you expect me to defend it, you will be disappointed. As for their being freedom fighters in one instance and terrorists in another, I believe that is a function of their behavior in each circumstance.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You would kill would-be murderers? That sounds like thought crime to me.
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Raibeart
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
First, the history of our meddling in foreign affairs is rife with examples of such unintended consequences. If you expect me to defend it, you will be disappointed. As for their being freedom fighters in one instance and terrorists in another, I believe that is a function of their behavior in each circumstance.


In other words, when it suits the US they are "mujahideen freedom fighters", but when the EXACT same group joins their co-religionists in Iraq using the EXACT same tactics, they are now called by the US "terrorists". Thanks for clearing that up for me TrespasserW.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Raibeart wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
First, the history of our meddling in foreign affairs is rife with examples of such unintended consequences. If you expect me to defend it, you will be disappointed. As for their being freedom fighters in one instance and terrorists in another, I believe that is a function of their behavior in each circumstance.

In other words, when it suits the US they are "mujahideen freedom fighters", but when the EXACT same group joins their co-religionists in Iraq using the EXACT same tactics, they are now called by the US "terrorists". Thanks for clearing that up for me TrespasserW.

I don't care what "suits the US" as you put it; what I wrote was that for me, what makes a person a terrorist is their methods, not whether I agree with their goals. (And I've stated that position clearly enough and repeatedly enough that if you still don't understand it, you never will.)
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
Raibeart wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
First, the history of our meddling in foreign affairs is rife with examples of such unintended consequences. If you expect me to defend it, you will be disappointed. As for their being freedom fighters in one instance and terrorists in another, I believe that is a function of their behavior in each circumstance.

In other words, when it suits the US they are "mujahideen freedom fighters", but when the EXACT same group joins their co-religionists in Iraq using the EXACT same tactics, they are now called by the US "terrorists". Thanks for clearing that up for me TrespasserW.

I don't care what "suits the US" as you put it; what I wrote was that for me, what makes a person a terrorist is their methods, not whether I agree with their goals. (And I've stated that position clearly enough and repeatedly enough that if you still don't understand it, you never will.)


our methods achieve the same results...the deaths of thousands of innocent people. just because we use "smart bombs" to do it doesn't make it just or any less terrorist.
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Raibeart
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I don't care what "suits the US" as you put it; what I wrote was that for me, what makes a person a terrorist is their methods, not whether I agree with their goals. (And I've stated that position clearly enough and repeatedly enough that if you still don't understand it, you never will.)


I understand perfectly well that YOUR definition of "terrorist/terrorism" is YOUR own point of view. What I AM trying to point out is the sheer hypocrisy of US Foreign Policy in regard to the "terrorist/terrorism" definition. (I've stated this repeatedly enough and if you don't understand it now, you never will.)
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No, what you've been doing ad nauseum is challenging me to knock down your poorly constructed straw men, and I simply don't care to play.
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Raibeart
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You will have to explain which is the "poorly constructed straw man" you're referring to in order for me to understand the relevance of this.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Raibeart wrote:
You will have to explain which is the "poorly constructed straw man" you're referring to in order for me to understand the relevance of this.

(Sigh...)

Okay everyone, class is in session. Pay attention, because I'm only going to explain this once. Here's Raibeart's most recent straw man creation:

Raibeart wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:
First, the history of our meddling in foreign affairs is rife with examples of such unintended consequences. If you expect me to defend it, you will be disappointed. As for their being freedom fighters in one instance and terrorists in another, I believe that is a function of their behavior in each circumstance.

In other words, when it suits the US they are "mujahideen freedom fighters", but when the EXACT same group joins their co-religionists in Iraq using the EXACT same tactics, they are now called by the US "terrorists". Thanks for clearing that up for me TrespasserW.

This is a clear cut example of a straw man fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html). Rather than respond to what I actually wrote, you pretend to regurgitate it back to me, only you offer a completely new argument that is (A) not mine and (B) designed (by you) to be obviously flawed and easy for you to knock down. You then challenge me to stand by your fabricated argument, pretending it was mine.

Any questions? Cool
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think what Railbert is trying to say is that there is a lot of hypocracy in supporting a group of terrorists when it is beneficial. And not supporting them and labeling them "terrorists" when they turn and attack us. When did they stop/start becoming terrorists? When we said that they were. Was this title formed on the basis that they had found a new employer and didn't love us no more? Or, was it a label that came out of political convenience?

Correct me if I misinterpreted what you are saying.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xerxes wrote:
I think what Railbert is trying to say is that there is a lot of hypocracy in supporting a group of terrorists when it is beneficial. And not supporting them and labeling them "terrorists" when they turn and attack us.

If Raibeart wants to make that argument, he is welcome to do so. Likewise, if he wants to find fault with my statements, that's fair as well. What is not fair, and what I called him on, was pretending I'd made statements I didn't just so he could smugly pretend to overpower me with his masterful intellect. I've explained what I believe constitutes terrorism, and I've been clear that I don't care how noble the goal behind it may be. I am against terrorism for any reason and by anyone, and consider it equally reprehensible whether Hamas or Uncle Sam is behind it.
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Xerxes
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
Xerxes wrote:
I think what Railbert is trying to say is that there is a lot of hypocracy in supporting a group of terrorists when it is beneficial. And not supporting them and labeling them "terrorists" when they turn and attack us.

If Raibeart wants to make that argument, he is welcome to do so. Likewise, if he wants to find fault with my statements, that's fair as well. What is not fair, and what I called him on, was pretending I'd made statements I didn't just so he could smugly pretend to overpower me with his masterful intellect. I've explained what I believe constitutes terrorism, and I've been clear that I don't care how noble the goal behind it may be. I am against terrorism for any reason and by anyone, and consider it equally reprehensible whether Hamas or Uncle Sam is behind it.


Well, I think it is awesome that you think Bush should be impeached. Shocked
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