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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Lester"]Just because something lines up with history doesn't mean it's just as true as history, and if you talk to a historian I'm sure they will tell you that history is never certain, it's solid conjecture, but it's still conjecture. For example, the norse discovering Canada before anyone else?? That was a hoax last time I checked..[/quote]

Really it was? It's funny because it was in my history books in college, high school, junior high and even elementary school and i have searched on the internet and all the sources i found confirm that Leif ericson did in fact discover the americas before columbus. Now there is even strong evidence that it was discovered even before that because of nicotine and cocaine found in mummies and other people of that time period. I watched a special on it and found this.

http://www.druglibrary.org/sch.....ummies.htm

and if you want stuff on leif ericson read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Ericson
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="exton"][quote="christianzack"]
well the thing is is that god has done miraculous things that many people saw and as a result were recorded in the bible.

The evidence is the eye witness accounts which is what the bible is full of and what HISTORY is based off of. According to your argument nothing from that period in time can be proved and therefore never happened because we can not prove it. It could have ALL been an elaborate hokes that a bunch of people put together and agreed with. According to your logic we can't even prove that Christopher Columbus was a real person. He was probably a parable and a fictitious character. Show me proof that he existed.

The bible does line up with history and if it is not valid than neither is history.[/quote]

Go back and read what i wrote zack. Read the WHOLE thing.[/quote]

UM i did read the whole thing and according to your argument all of history could be fallible because of the unreliability of eye witness accounts, oral stories passed down and simple lack of supporting documents which are based off these 2.

In history you will not find the the names of every person who ever existed. It is hard to prove that many ancient people existed and that events occurring in their lives are true but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Our religion is not based off evidence it is based off faith which could only be defeated by proof of the opposite which you obviously do not have. True neither do i but this is the whole problem that occurs between atheists and theists. Proof vs faith but lets consider this..... what happens in the impossibility Wink that I am wrong? According to atheists I will just seize to exist when i die, thats it no more thought or existence so even if my beliefs were wrong I won't be around to regret it. Aw my friend but if you are wrong you will spend ETERNITY regretting not having that great thing I call faith. Sit on it for a while. Its the same reason people get health insurance you never really know whats going to happen and until you die it will be just that not knowing and uncertainty.

I don't expect anyone to be frightened by that but it is very true.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
christianzack wrote:

UM i did read the whole thing and according to your argument all of history could be fallible because of the unreliability of eye witness accounts, oral stories passed down and simple lack of supporting documents which are based off these 2.


Right.

And i ALSO said that SOME things can be believed on less evidence than others because they are inherently more plausible based on what you already know.

Example:

I'm willing to believe that a farmer named joe owned a dog 3,000 years ago.

I am much less willing to believe that farmer joe's dog could fly.

Why?

Because i know that dogs exist, and I have good reason to believe that they also existed 3,000 years ago.

On the other hand, dogs are NOT known to fly, and there's no reason to believe that they were able to fly 3,000 years ago either. Were somebody to find an ancient document claiming otherwise, they'd need a lot more than that document to make the case that the document speaks the truth.


Quote:
Our religion is not based off evidence it is based off faith which could only be defeated by proof of the opposite which you obviously do not have.


A: This is actually not true. Faith's ability to be defeated depends entirely on the individual. Some people possess faith to such a degree that it is literally impossible to convince them otherwise, no matter what evidence you have to present.

B: You seem to imply that faith requires defeating. It does not.

Well, let me qualify that.
In order to change a person's mind, it may need defeating.
But, in terms of understanding and establishing the truth about the universe, it does not need defeating, because it holds no relevence there.

Quote:

True neither do i but this is the whole problem that occurs between atheists and theists. Proof vs faith but lets consider this..... what happens in the impossibility Wink that I am wrong?


Like i said: some people possess faith to such a degree that they cannot be convinced otherwise.

Don't pretend to be open to evidence when you clearly are not.

Quote:

According to atheists I will just seize to exist when i die, thats it no more thought or existence so even if my beliefs were wrong I won't be around to regret it. Aw my friend but if you are wrong you will spend ETERNITY regretting not having that great thing I call faith. Sit on it for a while.


That's called "pascal's wager", and it was laughed out of the room almost the moment pascal came up with it.

Why?

Because it's a false dichotomy.

One option is that i'm right, and there's no god.

Another option is that you are right, and the christian god exists.

But there's also a third option: we're both wrong. That is, i'm wrong because there is a god or gods, and you are wrong because that god (or gods) is not the christian god.

In that case, we both suffer for eternity.

As there are, in fact, an infinite number of possible god(s) to believe in, and as they all have the same amount of empirical evidence supporting their existence (none), it's almost impossible to choose the right one. (That is, it's as close to impossible as it can be without actually being literally, totally impossible.)

I therefore go with honesty.

Quote:

Its the same reason people get health insurance you never really know whats going to happen and until you die it will be just that not knowing and uncertainty.


No, the reason that we have health insurance is that medical costs are much too high for most people to afford. All insurance does is redistribute the cost of health care; the healthy rich people pay for the medical costs of the sick and not-so-rich people. It's a private industry, but don't let that fool you - that's exactly what ends up happening.

Quote:

I don't expect anyone to be frightened by that but it is very true.


As i've shown you, it's not true.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
christianzack wrote:
Aw my friend but if you are wrong you will spend ETERNITY regretting not having that great thing I call faith. Sit on it for a while. Its the same reason people get health insurance you never really know whats going to happen and until you die it will be just that not knowing and uncertainty.

I don't expect anyone to be frightened by that but it is very true.


Now we get to the heart of the matter...
spiritual extortion..
If you DON'T believe you will not be saved
you'll miss out on all the glory and sitting at the right hand of god up in heaven
THAT is the true spirit of faith
so I can get there I will shut everything else out and step on everyone or thing I have to get there
Hindus, muslims, taoists...there'll all go to hell
put anything in front of me that questions god's existence or the authority of the church and I'll deny and rationalize til death do me come

Have you ever been to Europe zack?
You go into church after church and the walls are covered with the most vile and disgusting portrayals of the end of days where people are flayed alive by demons and skewered and burned alive
...it's all propaganda...hokum...
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hokum, very nice.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hokum; Definition: trick
Synonyms: artifice, baloney, bamboozlement*, banana oil, bunco, chicanery, con, con game, cover up, cozening, deceit, deception, dirty pool*, dirty trick*, dodge, double-dealing*, fake, fast one, fast shuffle*, fix, flimflam, frame, fraud, gyp*, hanky-panky*, hoax, hoaxing, hogwash, hokum, humbug, hustle, imposture, jazz, jive, plant, put-on, racket, rip-off, run around, sell, shady deal, sham, shell game, skin game, snow job*, spoof, sting, stunt, swindle, total shuck, trickery, whitewash

when the word fits Wink
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Total shuck?? Don't they mean total shit??

I'm surprised though, I've never heard of cozening, and I'm big on the whole english as a language thing.
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="exton"][quote="christianzack"]
UM i did read the whole thing and according to your argument all of history could be fallible because of the unreliability of eye witness accounts, oral stories passed down and simple lack of supporting documents which are based off these 2.[/quote]

Right.

And i ALSO said that SOME things can be believed on less evidence than others because they are inherently more plausible based on what you already know.

[b]yes some things you can believe with less evidence because they are more plausible but just because a solution, theory or event SEEMS more plausible does not mean that it happened that way as we have seen many times in history oh like that one things atheists always bring up about geocentricity at one point it SEEMED much more plausible than what we believe now and people who said otherwise were crazy.

Besides it really isn't that unreasonable to believe that god exists or that Jesus existed and the things of the bible are true because number 1 these thing did happen before in the old testament and number 2 billions of people believe and have experienced god and believe Jesus was a real person.

Keep in mind here that atheists and agnostics are the minority Wink

and yes you could use my own argument against me with geocentricity and say that these things will be proved wrong and that theists will become the minority but you CAN NOT prove that ANYTHING does not exist you cant even 100% prove that something exists only that evidence leans more to one side and atheists definitely do not have evidence that leans towards the non-existence of god or that the things in the bible are not true.

Plus god is super-natural and therefore intangible so it would literally make it impossible to prove that he does exist without experiencing him for yourself .

yes you might say now that this is the perfect argument to prove god and Jesus are imaginary but on the contrary there are many things you have experienced that you can not prove to someone else say like emotions..... you absolutely can not prove to someone else that they exist, you can not prove pain exists or pleasure.

Lets say you had someone with a nerve disorder that made their entire body numb. It would be impossible to prove to them that pain existed or even that temperature existed now in your argument you say that these things are easier to believe because everybody has felt them but at the same time billions of people have felt and seen god and the supernatural.

and you cant feel and see god at work because you don't believe he exists. well ill tell ya what I don't believe that Singapore exists and is a real place. you cant prove that it exists unless you have been there. Yes you could show me maps and photos that indicate where it is and what it looks like but they are obviously forged and made up. You could even
let me meet someone who has been there and experienced it but they would be lying of coarse and ill never go there because it simply does not exist. You can't be in a place that does not exist right?

That is EXACTLY what your argument sounds like.[/b]
Example:

I'm willing to believe that a farmer named joe owned a dog 3,000 years ago.

I am much less willing to believe that farmer joe's dog could fly.

Why?

Because i know that dogs exist, and I have good reason to believe that they also existed 3,000 years ago.

On the other hand, dogs are NOT known to fly, and there's no reason to believe that they were able to fly 3,000 years ago either. Were somebody to find an ancient document claiming otherwise, they'd need a lot more than that document to make the case that the document speaks the truth.

[b]yes of coarse dogs cant fly because no one has ever claimed that one did and they cant.

now would you believe that farmer joe had a five legged dog? of coarse not because they don't exist right it would be highly UNPLAUSIBLE for farmer joe to have a five legged dog. Besides had i never seen one id pass it off as a hoax too. but here is a picture of a five legged dog

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Sou.....index.html
but had you not seen a five legged dog you would have not believed or at least been very skeptical that he had one even though without the photo it still exists. Things do not need proof to exist.
[/b]

[quote] Our religion is not based off evidence it is based off faith which could only be defeated by proof of the opposite which you obviously do not have.[/quote]

A: This is actually not true. Faith's ability to be defeated depends entirely on the individual. Some people possess faith to such a degree that it is literally impossible to convince them otherwise, no matter what evidence you have to present.

[b]yes this is why i said proof because proof proves things and yes different people need different types of proof to believe in something.

obviously if we could go back in time at the time and place where jesus lived and not find a trace of him or anyone that has heard of him it would be proof that he did not exist or at least that the bible was inaccurate about his existence therefore making the bible wrong and untrustworthy. It would prove it to some people. [/b]

B: You seem to imply that faith requires defeating. It does not.

[b]Never did I imply that faith REQUIRES defeating only that faith can be defeated as I have seen many people from other religions convert to Christianity and obviously there faith in that god and or religion was defeated. Just as I have seen many atheists convert to Christianity where their FAITH was defeated and yes atheism is a faith by definition of the word which means belief that is not based on proof which atheists do not have.[/b]

Well, let me qualify that.
In order to change a person's mind, it may need defeating.
But, in terms of understanding and establishing the truth about the universe, it does not need defeating, because it holds no relevence there.

[b]how so? prove it[/b]

[quote]
True neither do i but this is the whole problem that occurs between atheists and theists. Proof vs faith but lets consider this..... what happens in the impossibility Wink that I am wrong?[/quote]

Like i said: [i]some people[/i] possess faith to such a degree that they cannot be convinced otherwise.

Don't pretend to be open to evidence when you clearly are not.

[b]Well i simply have not seen any evidence at all!
you are the one that is not open to evidence[/b]


[quote]
According to atheists I will just seize to exist when i die, thats it no more thought or existence so even if my beliefs were wrong I won't be around to regret it. Aw my friend but if you are wrong you will spend ETERNITY regretting not having that great thing I call faith. Sit on it for a while.
[/quote]

That's called "pascal's wager", and it was laughed out of the room almost the moment pascal came up with it.

Why?

Because it's a false dichotomy.

One option is that i'm right, and there's no god.

Another option is that you are right, and the christian god exists.

But there's also a third option: we're both wrong. That is, i'm wrong because there is a god or gods, and you are wrong because that god (or gods) is not the christian god.

In that case, we both suffer for eternity.

As there are, in fact, an infinite number of possible god(s) to believe in, and as they all have the same amount of empirical evidence supporting their existence (none), it's almost impossible to choose the right one. (That is, it's as close to impossible as it can be without actually being literally, totally impossible.)

I therefore go with honesty.

[b]This still does not change your position and that you have 2 options to believe or not to believe and the consequences weigh the same you will either just perish or regret it for eternity.[/b]

[b]next Christianity is the one true religion because god would obviously make himself known through the most popular religion which christianity is and has the most followers.

Plus it is one of the most unique religions as is Jesus the most unique savior. Not to mention its roots go back much further than other religions excluding Hinduism and the Egyptian gods which christianity has hardly any similarities too.

yes yes go ahead and bring up the similarities that you have found I have already seen them squashed before. [/b]

but do you ever find it funny that atheists always pick on christianity as a focus point and not other religions. I have not been on a single atheist website that speaks against any other religions than christianity. I am not saying they don't exist. I am merely saying that its mostly christianity under fire. HMMM I wonder why that is? Since YAHWEH does exist than SATAN does too. I wonder if he has anything to do with it? He is the reason that there is so much opposition to christianity because he owns the other religions and turns everyone against christianity. He is the one that right now makes you so determined to prove me wrong even though i stand for a good cause and jesus' teaching should be practiced regardless of whether or not he exists.

[quote]
Its the same reason people get health insurance you never really know whats going to happen and until you die it will be just that not knowing and uncertainty.[/quote]

No, the reason that we have health insurance is that medical costs are much too high for most people to afford. All insurance does is redistribute the cost of health care; the healthy rich people pay for the medical costs of the sick and not-so-rich people. It's a private industry, but don't let that fool you - that's exactly what ends up happening.

[b]lol omg that is not the way it works! I am a licensed insurance agent and people get health insurance so that if something happens to them like disease, illness, accidents ect. and it costs a lot of money they wont have to worry about what will happen to them financially. In fact over the coarse of ones life they will pay more into insurance than than will ever be payed in claims in most cases and this bares true for poor people as well as rich people. Insurance rates very by risk not by income lol thats good stuff.

thats why its called insurance! it eliminates the finacial RISK just as religion in a sense eliminates the spiritual risk of regret and suffering in the after life. [/b]

[quote]
I don't expect anyone to be frightened by that but it is very true.[/quote]

As i've shown you, it's not true.[/quote]

[b]owe but it is![/b]


Last edited by christianzack on Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="joeyjock"][quote="christianzack"]Aw my friend but if you are wrong you will spend ETERNITY regretting not having that great thing I call faith. Sit on it for a while. Its the same reason people get health insurance you never really know whats going to happen and until you die it will be just that not knowing and uncertainty.

I don't expect anyone to be frightened by that but it is very true.[/quote]

Now we get to the heart of the matter...
spiritual extortion..
If you DON'T believe you will not be saved
you'll miss out on all the glory and sitting at the right hand of god up in heaven
THAT is the true spirit of faith
so I can get there I will shut everything else out and step on everyone or thing I have to get there
Hindus, muslims, taoists...there'll all go to hell
put anything in front of me that questions god's existence or the authority of the church and I'll deny and rationalize til death do me come

actually hell is not eternal and is not what most think and there is nothing that supports that in the bible and yes the english version says thing like forever but the word it was translated from does not mean that. Hell is often referred to in the bible as a furnace and so was egypt as a matter of fact but we no that none of the plagues of egypt involved fire or burning like what most people think of hell. I think it is very ignorant to believe that as i once did.

Lets look at what furnaces were used for in that era. They were used to purify metals just as i believe hell is a place of suffering used to purify sinners until they repent. In theory you could stay there for eternity but i doubt anyone could handle it that long and would eventually cry out to Jesus.
aw yes you think this is so brutal huh? but this is god disciplining you so that you can see his glory and be invited into it, just as a father disciplines his children. All actions have consequences especially sin. This is much better than god just taking you out of existence or leaving you there forever. you might ask but why doesnt god just forgive everyone and let them all go to heaven?? it would be cruel for god to force you to go to heaven for eternity if you didn't want to be there and you wanted nothing to do with him as atheists don't and if there was no punishment and consequences for actions then the universe would have no order. Could you imagine what the earth would be like without laws and punishment for not obeying them??

and i have still yet to see any evidence against the claims of the bible and I constantly question church authority because they are run by men that make mistakes and sometimes have an agenda different than what the bible teaches.

Have you ever been to Europe zack?
You go into church after church and the walls are covered with the most vile and disgusting portrayals of the end of days where people are flayed alive by demons and skewered and burned alive
...it's all propaganda...hokum...[/quote]

first of all the bible does not support those images nowhere does it depict such images and second its not relevant what a church decides to put on its walls in this argument.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No???
Christianity like all religions have a history
from the crusades down through the Puritans...the Salem witch trials the persecution of the Jews during the holocaust...right up to the pedofile priests

Those paintings that were made to scare people are just as much a part of it...
you cannot separate them
whether christianity has done things to counter balance them is something else...I say no
someone else may disagree
but faith is a very short step from zealotry and that was exactly the kind of thing that made 9/11 haappen
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
christianzack wrote:

yes some things you can believe with less evidence because they are more plausible but just because a solution, theory or event SEEMS more plausible does not mean that it happened that way as we have seen many times in history oh like that one things atheists always bring up about geocentricity at one point it SEEMED much more plausible than what we believe now and people who said otherwise were crazy.


That's exactly right.

And that's what some people find unsettling about the world - it's uncertain. Uncertainty is quite literally the best you can possibly do. The best you can do is draw conclusions from the evidence at hand, and be prepared to revise those conclusions when you get new evidence.

A lack of certainty doesn't mean that you should forgo all thought on the matter - it just means that you have to be prepared, or even expect, to be proven wrong.

Quote:

Besides it really isn't that unreasonable to believe that god exists or that Jesus existed


Well, given the word you used ("unreasonable"), i half agree. It's quite understandable that some people would come to those conclusions. If you're taught nothing else than that from birth, then it's not a big surprise that that's what you believe.

However, that's not the case with all people. I expect people who have a decent education to know better.

Quote:
because number 1 these thing did happen before in the old testament


Ah, but that's not evidence at all. In order to use the old testament as evidence, you have to show that it is true also!

Quote:

and number 2 billions of people believe and have experienced god and believe Jesus was a real person.


As you and i have already established, the number of people who believe something has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it's true.

Quote:

Keep in mind here that atheists and agnostics are the minority Wink


One of the most hated, too.

Quote:

and yes you could use my own argument against me with geocentricity and say that these things will be proved wrong and that theists will become the minority but you CAN NOT prove that ANYTHING does not exist you cant even 100% prove that something exists only that evidence leans more to one side


That is true. But, like i've said, uncertainty is actually the best that you can do - you can never reasonably have certainty.

Quote:

and atheists definitely do not have evidence that leans towards the non-existence of god or that the things in the bible are not true.


True. But that's not the way it works. Atheists would only have to prove those things false if they were already proven true.

But they aren't. No one's proven them true. So why would someone disprove them?

Quote:

Plus god is super-natural and therefore intangible so it would literally make it impossible to prove that he does exist without experiencing him for yourself .


The concept of the supernatural is incoherent in and of itself.

Quote:

yes you might say now that this is the perfect argument to prove god and Jesus are imaginary but on the contrary there are many things you have experienced that you can not prove to someone else say like emotions..... you absolutely can not prove to someone else that they exist, you can not prove pain exists or pleasure.


Well, no, we actually can prove those things these days. We have nifty new ways of seeing inside the body and the brain that allows us to see what the brain is doing when someone is thinking a particular thing.

Quote:

Lets say you had someone with a nerve disorder that made their entire body numb. It would be impossible to prove to them that pain existed or even that temperature existed


That is incorrect. You could do so with surgery. If you stimulate the proper parts of the brain with electrical current, a person will feel pain, even if they aren't actually being hurt.

Quote:

now in your argument you say that these things are easier to believe because everybody has felt them


No, that's not my argument there.

Quote:

but at the same time billions of people have felt and seen god and the supernatural.

and you cant feel and see god at work because you don't believe he exists.


That should immediately make you suspicious of the belief.

If you already fervently believe that something is true, then you WILL experience confirmation of it, even if it's actually false. The mind tricks itself that way; it's quite common.

Quote:

well ill tell ya what I don't believe that Singapore exists and is a real place. you cant prove that it exists unless you have been there. Yes you could show me maps and photos that indicate where it is and what it looks like but they are obviously forged and made up. You could even
let me meet someone who has been there and experienced it but they would be lying of coarse and ill never go there because it simply does not exist. You can't be in a place that does not exist right?


That's a good point.

But it fails for one very big, important reason:
Island nations exist. Even if you don't believe in singapore, there is precedent that establishes that its existence is entirely plausible.

It is, in fact, unreasonable to assume that it's a giant conspiracy based on what you have to work with - singapore being a conspiracy would actually be more incredible than it existing. It's far more likely that singapore exists than that literally the entire world - including people who don't know you and don't care about singapore - is in a plot to convince you of it, despite the fact that it doesn't.





Quote:

now would you believe that farmer joe had a five legged dog?


Well, no, i wouldn't be adverse to believing that. I'd be skeptical - mutant dogs of that sort are very uncommon, after all - but i wouldn't immediately dismiss it as out of hand, either.

Quote:

of coarse not because they don't exist right it would be highly UNPLAUSIBLE for farmer joe to have a five legged dog. Besides had i never seen one id pass it off as a hoax too. but here is a picture of a five legged dog

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Sou.....index.html
but had you not seen a five legged dog you would have not believed or at least been very skeptical that he had one even though without the photo it still exists. Things do not need proof to exist.


Even knowing that five-legged dogs exist (and you can conclude this even without seeing or hearing of one previously, for biological reasons), you should STILL be skeptical of such a claim.

Why?
Well, the claim that five-legged dogs exist is a reasonable one.

But the claim that one particular person has a five legged dog deserves skepticism, because, statistically speaking, five legged dogs are not very common.

It's kind of like if your friend claims that he's dating a supermodel. Supermodels certainly do exist, but they aren't very common (although they're much more common than mutant dogs), so you should be suspicious if your friend claims to date one.


Quote:

A: This is actually not true. Faith's ability to be defeated depends entirely on the individual. Some people possess faith to such a degree that it is literally impossible to convince them otherwise, no matter what evidence you have to present.

[b]yes this is why i said proof because proof proves things and yes different people need different types of proof to believe in something.


Strictly speaking, proof doesn't exist outside of mathematics. You can only prove something in as much as you start from certain assumptions. Certainty is impossible in real life.

Quote:

B: You seem to imply that faith requires defeating. It does not.

Never did I imply that faith REQUIRES defeating only that faith can be defeated as I have seen many people from other religions convert to Christianity and obviously there faith in that god and or religion was defeated. Just as I have seen many atheists convert to Christianity where their FAITH was defeated and yes atheism is a faith by definition of the word which means belief that is not based on proof which atheists do not have.


Atheism is a faith in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

As i said before: it doesn't make sense to try to disprove something when no one's actually proven it in the first place.

Quote:

Well, let me qualify that.
In order to change a person's mind, it may need defeating.
But, in terms of understanding and establishing the truth about the universe, it does not need defeating, because it holds no relevence there.

how so? prove it


You've already said it yourself: faith is belief without evidence.

Anybody can believe anything without evidence, regardless of whether or not what they believe is actually true.

On the other hand, in reality, some things are true, and others are not.

Faith is therefore useless in understanding reality, because it cannot reliably discriminate between truthood and falsehood in reality - it can only discriminate between the subjective beliefs that a single individual holds.

Quote:

Well i simply have not seen any evidence at all!
you are the one that is not open to evidence


Oh, i'm open to evidence. But my understanding of evidence is a bit more defined and rigorous than your own.


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This still does not change your position and that you have 2 options to believe or not to believe and the consequences weigh the same you will either just perish or regret it for eternity.



No. You explictly stated that the two options are: you are wrong and i am right, or, i am wrong and you are right.

And so i said: there is a third possibility. The third possibility is that we are both wrong and that we will both suffer for eternity.

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next Christianity is the one true religion because god would obviously make himself known through the most popular religion which christianity is and has the most followers.


That's obviously not true. When christianity started, it was, in fact, the least popular religion. It is only recently, historically speaking, that it has come to have the largest net number of believers.

And even then, the number of beliefs within christainity itself is diverse, and many believers disagree with many others.

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Plus it is one of the most unique religions as is Jesus the most unique savior. Not to mention its roots go back much further than other religions excluding Hinduism and the Egyptian gods which christianity has hardly any similarities too.

yes yes go ahead and bring up the similarities that you have found I have already seen them squashed before.


I'm not going to bother. The idea that jesus is "unique" is a religious one.

If you *really* want to know, just look it up on wikipedia. They have a whole page about it.

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but do you ever find it funny that atheists always pick on christianity as a focus point and not other religions.


No.

Have you considered where you live, and who you talk to?

The most popular religion in the western world is christanity. The atheists you know and have talked to are most likely entirely westerners.

They're not going to rail against muslims or hindus or whatever very often because they don't meet or talk to such people very often. Most of their experiences with religion involve christianity, and so that's the one they focus on the most.

And i'll have you know that i'm an equal opportunity offender: i'll go after any religion.


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I have not been on a single atheist website that speaks against any other religions than christianity. I am not saying they don't exist. I am merely saying that its mostly christianity under fire. HMMM I wonder why that is? Since YAHWEH does exist than SATAN does too. I wonder if he has anything to do with it? He is the reason that there is so much opposition to christianity because he owns the other religions and turns everyone against christianity. He is the one that right now makes you so determined to prove me wrong


I'm not particularly determined. I debate these things because i enjoy it, not because i have a vital desire to accomplish anything. I concluded long ago that i'll probably never convert anyone away from their religion; that's just the nature of religious beliefs.

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jesus' teaching should be practiced regardless of whether or not he exists.


That is partially true, but mostly untrue.

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[b]lol omg that is not the way it works! I am a licensed insurance agent and people get health insurance so that if something happens to them like disease, illness, accidents ect.


Yep. And WHY do they do that?

Because they can't afford the cost of the medicine.

If the medicine were actually affordable, the health insurance industry would collapse.

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and it costs a lot of money they wont have to worry about what will happen to them financially. In fact over the coarse of ones life they will pay more into insurance than than will ever be payed in claims in most cases and this bares true for poor people as well as rich people. Insurance rates very by risk not by income lol thats good stuff.


Did i say they varied by income? I did not.

And you're right that people pay out more than they insurance company pays them. But the reason for that should be obvious. While the net money payed accrues over time, that money doesn't accrue quickly enough. That is, people don't save money fast enough that they'll actually have it when they'll need it.

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thats why its called insurance! it eliminates the finacial RISK


Yes it does. And the only reason that the financial risk exists is that medicine costs too much.

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just as religion in a sense eliminates the spiritual risk of regret and suffering in the after life.


Realistically speaking, there is no spiritual risk.

There are an infinite number of possible religious beliefs that you could have. There are therefore an infinite number of possible ways that you could end up burning in hell (or something similar).

Since there is no evidence to support any religion, they are all equally likely to be correct.

Your chances of picking the right one are therefore 1 divided by infinity.

And what is 1 divided by infinity? It's zero, basically. That's the likelihood of making the right choice: zero.

That's why there's not really any risk - it's almost certain that you'll be wrong no matter what you do, and so, while you can realistically dread the onset of death, there isn't actually any risk, because you already know what's going to happen. Risk only exists in uncertainty.
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Lester
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2774

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could try and worship every god, but it's very difficult to fit in all the rituals on a sunday, and some of those wiccan rituals get you all tired in the morning...
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leprechaun1188
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Location: Egypt

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have no problem with Christians or Catholics, but i do have a massive problem with the institution of the church. why is it that you are a bad catholic if you don't go to church at least once a week, donate finances, listen to the priests surrounded by their gold emblazoned walls talk aboutthe poor and dying in africa that as a good christian you must donate money towards. why do people feel obliged to enter an institution to express their faith, shouldn't it suffice to know in your heart the strength of your faith? if god is really all seeing and all knowing, he'd know if you believe in him, regardless of whether or not you go to church.

I went to a catholic school for most of my younger education. i hated the way that religion is forced down your throat. perhaps one of the biggest reasons that I now do not believe in god, or the religious instiutions in general.
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