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Do You Believe In God?
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ringwormbettie
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject: Do You Believe In God? Reply with quote
I don't... well I will go with that because my religious beliefs are complicated.
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't believe in the supernatural at all.
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JohnMcClane
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I believe what I can see and explain. Also, I agree with the great words of Thomas Edison.

"I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."
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jonpotz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnMcClane wrote:
I believe what I can see and explain. Also, I agree with the great words of Thomas Edison.

"I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."


Ditto on that!

Seeing is believing.

Faith is required in many religions for God to exist...

And since the definition of faith is:

"Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

I'm more of a logical proof and material evidence type of guy.

However, I was raised a catholic, had my communion and confirmation. My family considered themselves catholics yet never practice ( going to church or praying ).

I think religion is a good idea...Many say we need it around so that people will learn morals. But I believe you can learn right from wrong without religion.
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The way (christian) religion teaches morality is a bad one. It tells people that the rules are arbitrary and that morality is about crime and punishment.

Bringing religion into morality muddies the waters and allows for disputes that have no solutions, because they are based on things that aren't real.

Relying on the supernatural to explain morality is the wrong way to go. People will be more inclined to act rightly when they have clear, genuine reasons for doing so. Disputes about morality especially can only be solved when you have a real basis for your moral views. Otherwise, it just ends up with shouting matches (at least) and religious terrorism (at worst).
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnMcClane wrote:
I believe what I can see and explain. Also, I agree with the great words of Thomas Edison.

"I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."


The only thing science accepts without empirical evidence is that things are only true if supported by the same.
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chevydriver1123
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I believe in God but im also an Agnostic. Technically im Catholic for family reasons but I dont go to chruch or anything like that.
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JohnMcClane
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Relying on the supernatural to explain morality is the wrong way to go. People will be more inclined to act rightly when they have clear, genuine reasons for doing so. Disputes about morality especially can only be solved when you have a real basis for your moral views. Otherwise, it just ends up with shouting matches (at least) and religious terrorism (at worst).
Wow. I am so going to use that the next time I have an argument about morality. Thanks.

Lester wrote:
The only thing science accepts without empirical evidence is that things are only true if supported by the same.
Science recognizes, and accepts, that a claim with no evidence does not get equal treatment with a claim that has no evidence. Science provides two things; one, an explanation of something beyond a reasonable doubt and two, that because we have not proved a claim isn't true that it should be consider probable or even worthy of belief.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You still haven't justified sciences belief that all things require empirical evidence.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
How do you learn?

By having ideas. You can have them yourself, or get them from other people.

But if you want to learn the truth about the universe, that alone isn't good enough. Ideas can be either true or false, and so the very existence of an idea isn't enough to substantiate its truthood.

You need verification. Specifically, you need objective verification, not additional ideas that may or may not be true. If you're trying to learn about the universe, what is there that you can check your ideas against?

The universe itself.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why do you need objective verification??
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Because otherwise you have no way to determine if a concept is correct. A concept could be true or false - just knowing what the concept is tells you nothing about whether or not it is tgrue.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
But how do you know that objective verification is the only way of knowing?
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Objective verification isn't a way of knowing - it's part of a way of knowing.

You have an idea. An idea can be right, and it can be wrong.

The question is: how can you know which one it is?

You can't. The mere act of possessing an idea tells you nothing about whether or not that idea is really correct.

So you need to confirm it.

And how can you confirm it?
Well, you could ask someone else. But there you run into the same problem: a person's assessment of an idea tells you no more about the truthood or falsehood of that idea than the idea itself does. All you can get from a person is that person's view on the matter. You can't tell if that persons' view is true or false.

You need something that can verify an idea. You need to be able to do something with this idea that will confirm or deny it, so that you can know if it's true or false.

The only way to do that is to check it against reality. There is no other way - any other way of trying to confirm an idea runs into the same problem, that problem being that the source could be right or wrong.

Basically, you know reality is right. You are guarenteed that reality is correct in this matter, because the ideas you're checking are about characterizing reality. So, what it comes down to is how well you're able to compare your ideas to reality.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"There is no other way <b>but god</b>." "You know <b>god</b> is right." "What it comes down to is how well your able to accept the ideas of <b>god</b>." "The only way to do that is to check <b>the bible</b>."
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