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Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

Whom would you have the United States government looking out for? Seems to me their Constitutional mandate is to look out for the interests of the United States.

A stable and prosperous world is in the best interests of the united states.

Do you believe that our government seeks anything else? (And I'm asking this because I assume you can recognize the difference between seeking instability and causing it without intending to do so. There's also the question of whether it is sometimes necessary to create greater instability in the short term in order to move towards greater stability in the long term, but that's probably fodder for other discussions.)

TrespassersW wrote:
That they may try to improve the lot of people elsewhere (to good or bad result) should be a function of trying to improve things for us.

I can't say i disagree. That doesn't change the truthood of the statement to which you responded.[/quote]
Sorry, what?

TrespassersW wrote:
(Or occasionally in the case of humanitarian aid--a reflection of who we aspire to be as a nation.)

Humanitarian aid shouldn't be done for the sake of warm, fuzzy feelings. It should be done out of recognition of the fact that our fate is tied to the rest of the world's.[/quote]
Sure it can have a stabilizing effect, but I hope it is more than that. If I have a chance to save a man's life, I'm going to try to save him, whether there is any real or perceived upside for me doesn't factor into it. The people who flew from the US to help Tsunami survivors didn't do it hoping the favor would one day be returned, they did it because they each wanted to be the kind of person that would help someone in such desperate need.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

Quote:

A stable and prosperous world is in the best interests of the united states.

Do you believe that our government seeks anything else?


I believe our government has a tendency towards failing to consider seeking such things, especially these last few years. It's not that their outlook is too long-term - it's that it's too short-term.

Quote:

Sure it can have a stabilizing effect, but I hope it is more than that. If I have a chance to save a man's life, I'm going to try to save him, whether there is any real or perceived upside for me doesn't factor into it. The people who flew from the US to help Tsunami survivors didn't do it hoping the favor would one day be returned, they did it because they each wanted to be the kind of person that would help someone in such desperate need.


That's the way it manifests itself on an individual level, yes. But as far as the behavior of an entire civilization goes, that's not the proper motivation behind the group initiative.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

Quote:

A stable and prosperous world is in the best interests of the united states.

Do you believe that our government seeks anything else?

I believe our government has a tendency towards failing to consider seeking such things, especially these last few years. It's not that their outlook is too long-term - it's that it's too short-term.

You consider the goal of reshaping the Middle East to be more democratic and westward leaning as a short-term goal? Or is it the war on terrorism we've been told will go on for decades that you call the result of a short-term outlook? I would actually argue that a failure to consider the long-term implications of what we're doing lends itself to missing the possible positive long-term results of the admittedly costly short-term. (I didn't word that very well, but I don't have time to worry about it right now; I think you know what I mean.)
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

You consider the goal of reshaping the Middle East to be more democratic and westward leaning as a short-term goal?


The way they've been doing it? Yeah. They're trying to accomplish it in a very short period of time.

Properly done, it's a long-term goal. But it's not being done properly.

Quote:

Or is it the war on terrorism we've been told will go on for decades that you call the result of a short-term outlook?


Again - properly done, it's a long term thing. Properly done.

Quote:

I would actually argue that a failure to consider the long-term implications of what we're doing lends itself to missing the possible positive long-term results of the admittedly costly short-term.


The thing about long-term goals is that they (especially these sorts) ought to be done on the long term.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
TrespassersW wrote:

You consider the goal of reshaping the Middle East to be more democratic and westward leaning as a short-term goal?

The way they've been doing it? Yeah. They're trying to accomplish it in a very short period of time.
Properly done, it's a long-term goal. But it's not being done properly.

Well, they've stated that it's a long-term goal, but I'll concede that forcing a change in Iraq is quicker than waiting for it to happen of its own accord.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:22 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:

Well, they've stated that it's a long-term goal,


Their word is worth very little. And their idea of 'long-term' may be very different from yours or mine.

Quote:

but I'll concede that forcing a change in Iraq is quicker than waiting for it to happen of its own accord.


Forcing it through military action is about as hasty as it gets.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Humanitarian aid shouldn't be done for the sake of warm, fuzzy feelings. It should be done out of recognition of the fact that our fate is tied to the rest of the world's.


Damn but I love it when you show your intellgient self-preservation side, I hope it will inspire people to see that communism isn't just about giving shit up.
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TrespassersW
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Forcing it through military action is about as hasty as it gets.

Hasty is demanding to get our troops out now. Taking the long-term view involves staying the course and seeing that we leave Iraq better than we found it.

(Seems to me some people in this country would be very disappointed if things worked out okay over there.)
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
TrespassersW wrote:
exton wrote:
Forcing it through military action is about as hasty as it gets.

Hasty is demanding to get our troops out now.


I agree. And don't change the subject.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
exton wrote:
Humanitarian aid shouldn't be done for the sake of warm, fuzzy feelings. It should be done out of recognition of the fact that our fate is tied to the rest of the world's.


Damn but I love it when you show your intellgient self-preservation side, I hope it will inspire people to see that communism isn't just about giving shit up.


It doesn't inspire me to think that communism is a good idea, so i don't think it'll do much for anyone else.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:31 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Lester wrote:
exton wrote:
Humanitarian aid shouldn't be done for the sake of warm, fuzzy feelings. It should be done out of recognition of the fact that our fate is tied to the rest of the world's.


Damn but I love it when you show your intellgient self-preservation side, I hope it will inspire people to see that communism isn't just about giving shit up.


It doesn't inspire me to think that communism is a good idea, so i don't think it'll do much for anyone else.


Remember me? The communist? Do you really think I'm gonna run out of hope anytime soon?
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No, i'm pretty sure you've got hope in ample quantities.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thats all I was saying, that I hope it will lead people to see that, I'm pretty sure I could convince you that communism was a good idea if I had about 6 hours in real life.
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Turk
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
chevydriver1123 wrote:
Turk wrote:
Its too bad that the Gops rep has been destroyed by neocons.
The GOP needs to straighten out and ababdon the neocons, the GOP is not about global war mongering inperialists, or entitlement state, GOP needs to return to classic conservativism.


Yea whatever happend to staying out of other countries problems?

Well when big business neocons and big govt neocons are in power that all goes away.
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chevydriver1123
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Conservatism and Neoconservatism Reply with quote
Turk wrote:
chevydriver1123 wrote:
Turk wrote:
Its too bad that the Gops rep has been destroyed by neocons.
The GOP needs to straighten out and ababdon the neocons, the GOP is not about global war mongering inperialists, or entitlement state, GOP needs to return to classic conservativism.


Yea whatever happend to staying out of other countries problems?

Well when big business neocons and big govt neocons are in power that all goes away.



I bet alot of people hate the fact that we are the world police.
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