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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:13 pm    Post subject: church denies man catholic funeral Reply with quote
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Yahoo! News
Officials deny funeral for Italian man

By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer 2 minutes ago

The Roman Catholic Church on Friday denied a religious funeral for the paralyzed Italian author who died after a doctor disconnected his respirator, saying it would treat his public wish to "end his life" as a willful suicide.

Piergiogio Welby's widow, who defended the doctor's decision, said the family would hold a lay funeral for him on Sunday if the church denied rites. Anti-euthanasia campaigners and some right-wing newspapers have described Welby's death as murder.

"For me it was not a murder, absolutely. Piero died naturally, falling asleep and giving back his soul to the creator," Mina Welby said.

Welby's family said they learned of the Rome diocese's decision to withhold a religious funeral when they tried to make arrangements with their local parish.

"I won't deny that I was furious," said his sister, Carla. She said the decision would be particularly hard for her mother.

"I don't know with what words we will tell her that she can't hold a funeral for her son in church," she said.

The Vatican — which maintains a strong influence on Italian politics — vehemently opposes euthanasia, insisting that life must be safeguarded from its beginning to its "natural" end, but says that extraordinary means need not be used.

In many apparent suicides, the Church allows funerals on the assumption that the deceased was not of sound enough mind to make rational decisions. The office of the Vicar of Rome said it had refused a religious funeral for Welby because of his "repeated and publicly affirmed" desire to "end his life."

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan, a senior Vatican official in charge of health care issues, told The Associated Press on Wednesday that if doctors determined that the respirator constituted extraordinary means, it could be removed, in line with Vatican teaching.

Welby, 60, who was terminally ill with the degenerative disease muscular dystrophy, died on Wednesday after a long campaign which included writing a book and pleading with Italy's president to be allowed to die.

"He wanted to carry on the issue of euthanasia; his fear was having to die in a terrible way, suffocated," said Mina Welby. "He didn't think only about himself, but about many other ill people ... who would have this problem at the end of their lives."

Rome prosecutors have begun investigating Welby's death and have questioned, as a witness, Mario Riccio, the doctor who sedated Welby and disconnected his respirator.

The case has highlighted an apparent contradiction in Italian law: Patients have a constitutional right to refuse treatment, but the Italian medical code requires doctors keep a patient alive.

On Saturday, a Rome judge recognized Welby's right to refuse treatment — but ruled there is no law that could force a doctor to take measures that would lead to a patient's death, even at the patient's request.

The judge urged legislators to address the contradiction, saying the decision to disconnect a respirator "is left to the complete discretion of any doctor to whom the request is made."

Mina Welby said her husband could not come to terms with diminishing mental faculties that made it difficult for him to read and write.

"He could not accept to just lie there and watch television and listen to some music," she said. "For him life meant being able to move, to move also with the brain, and he couldn't do that anymore."

Monsignor Rino Fisichella, who has close ties to the Vatican, told state TV that those who suffer should seek mercy through prayer, but in Welby's case, "it was repeatedly asked, in an explicit way, that this life be taken," leading church officials to deny the funeral, said Fisichella, who is rector of the Pontifical Lateranense University in Rome.

He said that the church "must proclaim yet again the joy of life and the capacity to give sense to life and to suffering."

Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: church denies man catholic funeral Reply with quote
jusdeadphunky wrote:
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Yahoo! News
Officials deny funeral for Italian man

By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer 2 minutes ago

The Roman Catholic Church on Friday denied a religious funeral for the paralyzed Italian author who died after a doctor disconnected his respirator, saying it would treat his public wish to "end his life" as a willful suicide.

Piergiogio Welby's widow, who defended the doctor's decision, said the family would hold a lay funeral for him on Sunday if the church denied rites. Anti-euthanasia campaigners and some right-wing newspapers have described Welby's death as murder.

"For me it was not a murder, absolutely. Piero died naturally, falling asleep and giving back his soul to the creator," Mina Welby said.

Welby's family said they learned of the Rome diocese's decision to withhold a religious funeral when they tried to make arrangements with their local parish.

"I won't deny that I was furious," said his sister, Carla. She said the decision would be particularly hard for her mother.

"I don't know with what words we will tell her that she can't hold a funeral for her son in church," she said.

The Vatican — which maintains a strong influence on Italian politics — vehemently opposes euthanasia, insisting that life must be safeguarded from its beginning to its "natural" end, but says that extraordinary means need not be used.

In many apparent suicides, the Church allows funerals on the assumption that the deceased was not of sound enough mind to make rational decisions. The office of the Vicar of Rome said it had refused a religious funeral for Welby because of his "repeated and publicly affirmed" desire to "end his life."

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan, a senior Vatican official in charge of health care issues, told The Associated Press on Wednesday that if doctors determined that the respirator constituted extraordinary means, it could be removed, in line with Vatican teaching.

Welby, 60, who was terminally ill with the degenerative disease muscular dystrophy, died on Wednesday after a long campaign which included writing a book and pleading with Italy's president to be allowed to die.

"He wanted to carry on the issue of euthanasia; his fear was having to die in a terrible way, suffocated," said Mina Welby. "He didn't think only about himself, but about many other ill people ... who would have this problem at the end of their lives."

Rome prosecutors have begun investigating Welby's death and have questioned, as a witness, Mario Riccio, the doctor who sedated Welby and disconnected his respirator.

The case has highlighted an apparent contradiction in Italian law: Patients have a constitutional right to refuse treatment, but the Italian medical code requires doctors keep a patient alive.

On Saturday, a Rome judge recognized Welby's right to refuse treatment — but ruled there is no law that could force a doctor to take measures that would lead to a patient's death, even at the patient's request.

The judge urged legislators to address the contradiction, saying the decision to disconnect a respirator "is left to the complete discretion of any doctor to whom the request is made."

Mina Welby said her husband could not come to terms with diminishing mental faculties that made it difficult for him to read and write.

"He could not accept to just lie there and watch television and listen to some music," she said. "For him life meant being able to move, to move also with the brain, and he couldn't do that anymore."

Monsignor Rino Fisichella, who has close ties to the Vatican, told state TV that those who suffer should seek mercy through prayer, but in Welby's case, "it was repeatedly asked, in an explicit way, that this life be taken," leading church officials to deny the funeral, said Fisichella, who is rector of the Pontifical Lateranense University in Rome.

He said that the church "must proclaim yet again the joy of life and the capacity to give sense to life and to suffering."

Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Questions or Comments
Privacy Policy -Terms of Service - Copyright/IP Policy - Ad Feedback

kudos sources quoted.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: church denies man catholic funeral Reply with quote
[quote="Docsmitter"]
jusdeadphunky wrote:
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kudos sources quoted.

thank you.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Look, thats totally fine by me, they are a private instituition, they have the right to exclude people from their services based on whatever criteria they wish, just like restaurants reserve the right to not serve someone.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Look, thats totally fine by me, they are a private instituition, they have the right to exclude people from their services based on whatever criteria they wish, just like restaurants reserve the right to not serve someone.


true
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Spider Jerusalem
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Look, thats totally fine by me, they are a private instituition, they have the right to exclude people from their services based on whatever criteria they wish, just like restaurants reserve the right to not serve someone.

I agree with that. But they're still assholes and I'd stop funding Catholiscm had I been those people. I've met some good Catholics, but alot of them mourn thier religion, not celebrate it. And thier just a big bag of dogshit.
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PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Catholic Church has the right to perform their services for whoever they want to, and I have a right to say that someone who is clear of mind should, in my opinion, have a right to end his or her own life. Of course, someone depressed or insane is different, and should be treated before such a request is granted. But honestly, if people don't like it, they should stop being Catholics. Religious groups like that (note that i say like that, not religious groups in general) are primarily about telling their worshippers what to believe. If people don't wanna be told to believe those things, they should stop whining and find themselves a new religion. And anyone who likes that kind of thing is welcome to enjoy it as far as I'm concerned.
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jusdeadphunky
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
the church can do whatever the fuck they want, but i think it is shitty that they go and pass judgement on people like this. only god can judge people...right...so why is the church judging this guy and punishing him?
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Tesla
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spider Jerusalem wrote:
but alot of them mourn thier religion, not celebrate it. And thier just a big bag of dogshit.


you've seen Dogma havent you Very Happy

but any who, organized religion is bad. pure and simple, even if they preach love, and forgiveness, they still try to control you. If you goto "heaven" or not is between you and God, not you and the Pope.
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Spider Jerusalem
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What gets me isn't the whole love vs justice thing, I can understand that. It's the whole notion of The Pope. Who's bassicaly the human voice of God.

That's gotta' be heresy.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tesla wrote:
Spider Jerusalem wrote:
but alot of them mourn thier religion, not celebrate it. And thier just a big bag of dogshit.


you've seen Dogma havent you Very Happy

but any who, organized religion is bad. pure and simple, even if they preach love, and forgiveness, they still try to control you. If you goto "heaven" or not is between you and God, not you and the Pope.


But in the hierchy of the world, why would little plebians like ourselfs get the honor of being bestowed with the ability to connect with god, only one man has that right in gods all mighty plan of human justice...
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Look, thats totally fine by me, they are a private instituition, they have the right to exclude people from their services based on whatever criteria they wish, just like restaurants reserve the right to not serve someone.


Then don't say that God is an all forgiving and kind entity... Confused
Tell it like it really is...
It's a country club based mentality whereby the people in it feel safer because they're being told "we're going to heaven and you're not"

This is what wars for millenium have been based on
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
joeyjock wrote:

Then don't say that God is an all forgiving and kind entity... Confused
Tell it like it really is...


But they really do believe that god is all loving and all forgiving, and that he also sends people to hell for eternity.

The religious are experts at doublethink.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:


The religious are experts at doublethink.


Exactly...
Inconguous thought is a very good way at controlling how you think
If you keep everything as a question ... you don't have to provide any answers Wink
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MissLisa
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Once upon a time I was a Roman Catholic. During my life I gave birth to 3 children. The first two out of wedlock, but yet my church baptized these two children.

Then I got married, gave birth to my 3rd and last child while in my marriage. The Catholic church refused to baptize her because my then husband didn't have his first marriage annulled.

Now according to my then very confused belief system (as taught by my catholic mentors) if a child isn't baptized and they died before being confirmed (into Catholicism) they were going to hell since everyone is born in sin, and baptism frees the child from this hell sentence. But not if your husband doesn't absolve his first marriage.

So we got the paper work to do away with this first marriage thru the catholic church... holy cow batman... all they (the catholic church) cared about with his first marriage was their sex life. Every other question had to do with sex! In those days I was young, insecure and highly jealous... I threw the annulment papers away and joined the Lutherans who allowed my baby to be baptized... and never looked back since.

Now, I just look back at it all and chuckle at my own self for the crazy belief system that I was spellbound to.

Just wanted to share my little story within this thread

Namaste,
Lisa
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