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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
It's your life to live, but if you want to do seriously bodily harm to yourself your considered to have some serious psychological problems


That is inaccurate. The desire to stop living does not, in and of itself, constitute a mental illness.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Suicidal tendencies is a *symptom* of serious psychological problems, it indicates that thos eproblems are there, your right, in itself it's not a mental illness in itself, it just means that you *have* a mental illness.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
it just means that you *have* a mental illness.


No, it's a *possible* symptom. Not everyone who wants to die has a mental illness.

If someone wants to die, then they should certainly be clinically evaluated before anyone goes to help them do it. But wanting to die doesn't automatically mean that a person has a mental illness.
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PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, Lester, we found one issue where you swing right!

I believe that a person demonstrating mental instability should be counseled (to health, if possible) before any discussion of allowing them to end their life can be made. But a lucid person, who expresses the desire to die consistently over some period of time, or a permanently vegetative person, should not be forced to live. I think, by your very argument of self-awareness, humans have a right to make that decision. Again, all other options should be exhausted before this is allowed, but if you knew that for the rest of your life you would be unable to move, speak or see, and would experience blinding, unimaginable pain, would you honestly feel that a law enforcement officer can make this decision about your body for you?

As I see it, the right of a lucid human to end his or her life is as much an issue of privacy and personal physical liberty as the right to get an abortion, the right to use drugs if they do not induce violent actions, and the right to have consensual sex with whoever you wish, along with many others. Do you believe people should be legaly prevented from doing anything unhealthy for them? If not, where's the line? Drinking soda is bad for me and may eventually kill me, should that be illegal? How about drinking a beer? Not wearing a seatbelt in a motor vehicle? Playing a dangerous sport? If you don't give people the right to their own lives and bodies, they have no freedom whatsoever.
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MissLisa
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
It's your life to live, but if you want to do seriously bodily harm to yourself your considered to have some serious psychological problems, in which case you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions like this.


Did you see the movie "Million Dollar Baby"? If I ever ended up in a condition as she did... where my entire quality of life was confined to a bed, a respirator down my throat and unable to talk... call me mental and let me go Home. I should have the right to choose what quality of life I am willing to accept as "my life", regardless who agrees with it.

If this was the condition of one of my children, and they asked me to help them end their life, I would cry my eyes out because I will miss their physical presence in my life... but I would honor their choice and understand it with love and compassion, and help them go Home.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PeaceLoveandRockNRoll wrote:
Wow, Lester, we found one issue where you swing right!

I believe that a person demonstrating mental instability should be counseled (to health, if possible) before any discussion of allowing them to end their life can be made. But a lucid person, who expresses the desire to die consistently over some period of time, or a permanently vegetative person, should not be forced to live. I think, by your very argument of self-awareness, humans have a right to make that decision. Again, all other options should be exhausted before this is allowed, but if you knew that for the rest of your life you would be unable to move, speak or see, and would experience blinding, unimaginable pain, would you honestly feel that a law enforcement officer can make this decision about your body for you?

As I see it, the right of a lucid human to end his or her life is as much an issue of privacy and personal physical liberty as the right to get an abortion, the right to use drugs if they do not induce violent actions, and the right to have consensual sex with whoever you wish, along with many others. Do you believe people should be legaly prevented from doing anything unhealthy for them? If not, where's the line? Drinking soda is bad for me and may eventually kill me, should that be illegal? How about drinking a beer? Not wearing a seatbelt in a motor vehicle? Playing a dangerous sport? If you don't give people the right to their own lives and bodies, they have no freedom whatsoever.


Kinda makes you wonder if the whole world will blow up doesn't it?

Now while all your saying in this first paragraph seems perfectly logical, and you stress that all options must be exhausted first, the problem is, I just don't think someone would still want to die if all options really were exhausted, on top of this, while you can place every regulation on assisted suicide, it's still a slippery, slippery slope, thats why we don't(or didn't until bush) prohibit groups likes the KKK from speaking, because yes, we say all options have been exhausted, and surely putting such filth to rest would be a good thing, if we start with one group, theres the possiblity we will expand and expand, and I don't want those floodgates opened for every teenager who feels like no-one loves them. I have personally known a few people with suicidal tendencies, one of which I gave hope to, and now is incredibly happy. I really don't think that we can let anyone make the decision to kill themselves, because it means they have lost hope, all real live hope, and no-one should die like that.

As for the second paragraph, you can live if you do any of those things, and sometimes they even help you live, because frick we all need some sort of help, you can live if you drink, you can live if you smoke, you can live if you get toasted, you can live if you get crunked, you can live if you have an abortion, you can live if pop pills, you can even live sometimes if you shoot up, you can even live if you play russian roulette, and you can live if you die too, but only if your idea of suicide is to have a heart attack while surrounded by a crack team of doctors with defilbrilators.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:

I just don't think someone would still want to die if all options really were exhausted,


And you are wrong in thinking so. That's just a fact; you don't have to look very hard to find cases of terminally ill patients who would rather be put out of their misery.

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theres the possiblity we will expand and expand, and I don't want those floodgates opened for every teenager who feels like no-one loves them.


That, lester, is what psychiatric evaluations are for. You can't rationally claim that there's a slippery slope here, because we have reliable methods of determining whether or not someone is competant to decide their own fate.

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I really don't think that we can let anyone make the decision to kill themselves, because it means they have lost hope, all real live hope, and no-one should die like that.


So you would force them to live like that instead? That doesn't make any sense. There's more suffering involved in living like that than in dying like that.

For those who wish to die, death isn't sad and miserable, as you think of it. For them, it comes as a relief.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. There are also people with terminal illnesses who DON'T want to commit suicide, if they have something that those others don't, then all options have not been exhausted.

2. It's not deciding what your fate will be, but rather deciding that you will have no fate, besides, if someone has a terminal illness do you really think that they'll be completely sane? Or that they want to spend their last minutes in a psychiatric evaluation? Besides all that, psychiatric evaluations are not hard and fast yes and no, you don't get clear answers all the time, and it's that blurring of the lines that will lead to a slippery slope.

3. At least you can suffer, it's better than nothing.
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PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
1. There are also people with terminal illnesses who DON'T want to commit suicide, if they have something that those others don't, then all options have not been exhausted.

2. It's not deciding what your fate will be, but rather deciding that you will have no fate, besides, if someone has a terminal illness do you really think that they'll be completely sane? Or that they want to spend their last minutes in a psychiatric evaluation? Besides all that, psychiatric evaluations are not hard and fast yes and no, you don't get clear answers all the time, and it's that blurring of the lines that will lead to a slippery slope.

3. At least you can suffer, it's better than nothing.

1. ...They have different values and personality. Are you saying we should alter their personalities so they wanna live? Not every person is the same. I know you're a commie and all, but that's no excuse for not recognizing that fact. Given the same situation, some people will choose death, and others life. That, in fact, is the entire reason to give them a choice, because they deserve that right.

2. And it's telling people that you know more about their lives than they do that leads to fascism. How about people who are completely brain dead? Can we pull the plug on a vegetable or does that still count as life to you in some irrational way?

3. To you it's better than nothing. Are you saying someone in the actual situation has no right at all to disagree with you? That would make you completely against any personal liberty of any kind, you need the right to death to have the right to life, and you need the right to life to have anything else.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. In my experience those who want to die only feel that way because they feel that they have no connection with anyone, and that their life is meaningless, and that no-one would care if they did, or that nothing would be any different if they did thats not personality, thats giving up.

2. We don't know more about their lives, we know that it's the governments responsibility to protect those lives so that people can make their own decisions with them.

3. You need the right to death to have the right to life?? Bull! They are mutually exclusive, if you have the right to death then you don't have the right to life anymore, because you throw it away.
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PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
1. In my experience those who want to die only feel that way because they feel that they have no connection with anyone, and that their life is meaningless, and that no-one would care if they did, or that nothing would be any different if they did thats not personality, thats giving up.

2. We don't know more about their lives, we know that it's the governments responsibility to protect those lives so that people can make their own decisions with them.

3. You need the right to death to have the right to life?? Bull! They are mutually exclusive, if you have the right to death then you don't have the right to life anymore, because you throw it away.
1. If your debilitation is so great as to break your connection with the world without denying you life, that's a different issue.

2. Okay, again, what about vegetables?

3. The right to death is a part of the right to life, if my life is my own, I can determine its existence. Just like if a sandwich is my own and I wanna throw it away, it might be irresponsible and stupid in nearly every case, but its MY sandiwch. I know the analogy doesn't actually apply, but this is a characteristic of ownership and personal control. Nobody owns me but me, and while they have a responsibility to do their best to make my life bearable or convince me not to end it, the final right needs to be mine, or it's the government that owns me. Your statement doesn't make logical sense, you have some sense that human life is intrinsically valuable aside from any other factors including quality, potential, or anything else. If a person has been denied the ability to be a person, that person is, in my view, already dead.
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
1. There are also people with terminal illnesses who DON'T want to commit suicide, if they have something that those others don't, then all options have not been exhausted.


I agree that there are people who are terminally ill who don't want to die.

And? Their existence does not negate the existence of people who feel differently.

Quote:

2. It's not deciding what your fate will be, but rather deciding that you will have no fate,


Death at a specific time of your choosing is certainly a fate.

Quote:

besides, if someone has a terminal illness do you really think that they'll be completely sane?


Yes.
They'll be quite unhappy about it, most of the time. But being unhappy isn't a mental illness.

Quote:

Or that they want to spend their last minutes in a psychiatric evaluation?


Some wish to die. As a matter of procedure, they would have to undergo psychiatric evaluation before being helped with their suicide. It's not a matter of whether or not they want a psychiatric evaluation. If they want to die, that's the price they must pay. If they can't handle undergoing a psychiatric evaluation before offing themselves, then they clearly don't want to die very badly.

Quote:

Besides all that, psychiatric evaluations are not hard and fast yes and no, you don't get clear answers all the time,


Yes. That is why we have people called "psychologists", who study this stuff for a living.
An evaluation to determine soundness of mind isn't all that grueling.

Quote:

and it's that blurring of the lines that will lead to a slippery slope.


You haven't demonstrated any logic that would lead to that conclusion. "Slippery slope" arguments are iffy by their very nature, and yours is especially so without any sound reasoning.

Quote:

3. At least you can suffer, it's better than nothing.


I know that you feel that way.
Some people disagree; they'd rather get it over with.
Your personal preferences are not what determine how other people may lead (or not lead) their lives.
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
1. In my experience those who want to die only feel that way because they feel that they have no connection with anyone, and that their life is meaningless, and that no-one would care if they did, or that nothing would be any different if they did thats not personality, thats giving up.


People who want to die are not always depressed teenagers. Your experiences with mentally ill young people are not, in any sense, indicative of the bigger picture.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Lester wrote:
1. In my experience those who want to die only feel that way because they feel that they have no connection with anyone, and that their life is meaningless, and that no-one would care if they did, or that nothing would be any different if they did thats not personality, thats giving up.


People who want to die are not always depressed teenagers. Your experiences with mentally ill young people are not, in any sense, indicative of the bigger picture.


Yes, I know people who want to die are not always teenagers, my experience doesn't just encompass mentally ill young people either.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PeaceLoveandRockNRoll wrote:
Lester wrote:
1. In my experience those who want to die only feel that way because they feel that they have no connection with anyone, and that their life is meaningless, and that no-one would care if they did, or that nothing would be any different if they did thats not personality, thats giving up.

2. We don't know more about their lives, we know that it's the governments responsibility to protect those lives so that people can make their own decisions with them.

3. You need the right to death to have the right to life?? Bull! They are mutually exclusive, if you have the right to death then you don't have the right to life anymore, because you throw it away.
1. If your debilitation is so great as to break your connection with the world without denying you life, that's a different issue.

2. Okay, again, what about vegetables?

3. The right to death is a part of the right to life, if my life is my own, I can determine its existence. Just like if a sandwich is my own and I wanna throw it away, it might be irresponsible and stupid in nearly every case, but its MY sandiwch. I know the analogy doesn't actually apply, but this is a characteristic of ownership and personal control. Nobody owns me but me, and while they have a responsibility to do their best to make my life bearable or convince me not to end it, the final right needs to be mine, or it's the government that owns me. Your statement doesn't make logical sense, you have some sense that human life is intrinsically valuable aside from any other factors including quality, potential, or anything else. If a person has been denied the ability to be a person, that person is, in my view, already dead.


1. No it's not a different issue, it's the same issue, people of all walks of life wanting to kill themselves.

2. The law here is clear, it should be given to the legal guardian, but I view this in much the same way I view abortion, while I personally wouldn't want the plug pulled, people should be able to do it. Unless you can recover from brain death, which I don't think you can.

3. That same argument could be used to not prosecute the killers of people involved in gangs, after all, it was their life to throw away. Even those who are stripped of all rights are still alive, in your opinion they may be dead, but to themselves, they have their thoughts, and that spark of life should hold back the darkness for as long as possible.
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