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Oolon Colluphid
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Humans are different from animals MissLisa, our conciousness is, and should be protected for as long as possible. Animals are animals, no self awareness, thats why I feel no remorse when I bite into a T-bone steak.


Wouldn't that be reason to do just the opposite of what you're saying?

Because we have self awarness and are able to know that we are suffering with no hope of recovery, wouldn't it be more merciful to put the consciousness out of misery over an animal who has no knowledge of what is to come of it's life?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just because being self-aware would be painful is no reason to get rid of that self awareness, there are people with chronic arthritis at the age of 45, do you want to kill them? It would certainly put them out of their pain and misery.

Whether or not there is no hope of recovery(which we can never really know) a self-aware being must be kept alive for as long as possible, because it is so much more important than a being run on animal instinct.

Saying it's up to the person makes way for state sponsored suicide, and sorry, but you just can't do that.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Just because being self-aware would be painful is no reason to get rid of that self awareness, there are people with chronic arthritis at the age of 45, do you want to kill them? It would certainly put them out of their pain and misery.


Ah, but WHY would you not want to kill them? It's not because it's okay for someone to live in suffering. It's because a person with arthritis can still have a productive and, in total, happy life. Although part of such a person's life is painful, most of it will not be.

Quote:

Whether or not there is no hope of recovery(which we can never really know)


You can never know anything for certain. The best you can do is weigh the odds.

Quote:

a self-aware being must be kept alive for as long as possible, because it is so much more important than a being run on animal instinct.


Why? What is it about self-awareness that makes it inherently valuable?

Quote:

Saying it's up to the person makes way for state sponsored suicide, and sorry, but you just can't do that.


It's only state-sponsored if the state orders it or pays for it.

But even then, so what? Why can't you do that?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. And this girl can't live a happy life?

2. And the death of a self aware being outweighs all odds.

3. Self aware beings are the only beings who can acheive perfection.

4. Those with mental problems shouldn't be helped by anyone to remove their life.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
1. And this girl can't live a happy life?


That question isn't even applicable. She'll never be capable of experiencing happiness in the way that you or i do.

Quote:

2. And the death of a self aware being outweighs all odds.


Why?

Quote:

3. Self aware beings are the only beings who can acheive perfection.


Define perfection, and explain why it matters.

Quote:

4. Those with mental problems shouldn't be helped by anyone to remove their life.


Ah, but that's not what i've said we should do, either. A cognizant person in a delirious state of mind should certainly receive treatment before being asked about whether or not he wants to die. It's important that a person making such a decision is capable of being aware of the decision that they are making.

This girl, on the other hand, is not cognizant, nor will she ever be.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oops, i got my threads confused.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
And i think you did too lester.
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MissLisa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Humans are different from animals MissLisa, our conciousness is, and should be protected for as long as possible. Animals are animals, no self awareness, thats why I feel no remorse when I bite into a T-bone steak.

Well mebbe a little because it cost twenty dollars, but not because of the whole cow dead thing.


I think my cat's would beg to differ Laughing ... they are both very self aware... and very conscious. If either of them were terminally ill or in severe pain, I would have no problem putting them down to stop their suffering.

I have made sure my children know that this is what I want for myself too.

I don't think anyone should tell me that I do not have the right to die, if that is my personal desire. I know my consciousness lives on... and perhaps that is why we are afraid to let people die peacefully... so many just aren't sure where life goes after death... so why take the chance, better to force them to stay alive and in severe terminal pain. Don't you dare do that to me!!

The one species (us humans) that can clearly and firmly communicate their desire to die, we won't hear of it!
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MissLisa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Just because being self-aware would be painful is no reason to get rid of that self awareness, there are people with chronic arthritis at the age of 45, do you want to kill them? It would certainly put them out of their pain and misery.

Whether or not there is no hope of recovery(which we can never really know) a self-aware being must be kept alive for as long as possible, because it is so much more important than a being run on animal instinct.

Saying it's up to the person makes way for state sponsored suicide, and sorry, but you just can't do that.


If my grandmother suffered so badly from arthritis and was in constant pain from it... and she asked to be put out of her misery, I would not say no.

My desire to keep her alive and in pain would only be done from fear, not love!

If dying was her choice To be removed from terminal physical pain, regardless of what was available to alleviate her pain for a moment or two... I would honor her wishes, even if I would miss her terribly when she was gone, I may not even like her choice... but if it was what she truly desired... I would honor it.

I have no problem with state sponsored suicide as long as it is the families choice and the families idea... not the doctors or hospitals. Beats the hell out of hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep my loved one in pain (comfortable pain of course Razz )... set them free!!
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
And i think you did too lester.


Haha, we lose.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
MissLisa wrote:
Lester wrote:
Just because being self-aware would be painful is no reason to get rid of that self awareness, there are people with chronic arthritis at the age of 45, do you want to kill them? It would certainly put them out of their pain and misery.

Whether or not there is no hope of recovery(which we can never really know) a self-aware being must be kept alive for as long as possible, because it is so much more important than a being run on animal instinct.

Saying it's up to the person makes way for state sponsored suicide, and sorry, but you just can't do that.


If my grandmother suffered so badly from arthritis and was in constant pain from it... and she asked to be put out of her misery, I would not say no.

My desire to keep her alive and in pain would only be done from fear, not love!

If dying was her choice To be removed from terminal physical pain, regardless of what was available to alleviate her pain for a moment or two... I would honor her wishes, even if I would miss her terribly when she was gone, I may not even like her choice... but if it was what she truly desired... I would honor it.

I have no problem with state sponsored suicide as long as it is the families choice and the families idea... not the doctors or hospitals. Beats the hell out of hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep my loved one in pain (comfortable pain of course Razz )... set them free!!


Families? Ha! What right do they have to your body? I wouldn't leave that choice up to my family, and I wouldn't leave it up to someone whose mind might be affected by the very illness they want to avoid the pain of, pain is part of life, avoiding it is not only stupid but cowardly.

The problem with state sponsored suicide is that while it may begin as only those people who have terminal diseases, once it starts it is a slippery slope to hospitals providing teens with medication to kill themselves painlessly.
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MissLisa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
MissLisa wrote:
Lester wrote:
Just because being self-aware would be painful is no reason to get rid of that self awareness, there are people with chronic arthritis at the age of 45, do you want to kill them? It would certainly put them out of their pain and misery.

Whether or not there is no hope of recovery(which we can never really know) a self-aware being must be kept alive for as long as possible, because it is so much more important than a being run on animal instinct.

Saying it's up to the person makes way for state sponsored suicide, and sorry, but you just can't do that.


If my grandmother suffered so badly from arthritis and was in constant pain from it... and she asked to be put out of her misery, I would not say no.

My desire to keep her alive and in pain would only be done from fear, not love!

If dying was her choice To be removed from terminal physical pain, regardless of what was available to alleviate her pain for a moment or two... I would honor her wishes, even if I would miss her terribly when she was gone, I may not even like her choice... but if it was what she truly desired... I would honor it.

I have no problem with state sponsored suicide as long as it is the families choice and the families idea... not the doctors or hospitals. Beats the hell out of hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep my loved one in pain (comfortable pain of course Razz )... set them free!!


Families? Ha! What right do they have to your body? I wouldn't leave that choice up to my family, and I wouldn't leave it up to someone whose mind might be affected by the very illness they want to avoid the pain of, pain is part of life, avoiding it is not only stupid but cowardly.

The problem with state sponsored suicide is that while it may begin as only those people who have terminal diseases, once it starts it is a slippery slope to hospitals providing teens with medication to kill themselves painlessly.


I know from prior conversations you have a very strong affinity to life in the physical body... I can understand you wanting to hang onto life even thru severe pain. Not me!! lol if I knew I was going to be in severe pain... or even less than that... if I was in a condition my mental faculties were gone... giving me no quality of life except existence... check me out of life please!

That is why my children know now... while I am not in illness nor pain and have my mental faculties about me... that I want out and this is my choice not an debatable option when the time comes.

I do totally agree with your last statement... depression does not count in my above statement tho... only terminal illness or severe physical/mental capacity that severely reduces (or eliminates the quality of life I choose to experience).

But also states/hospitals have started to embrace the thought... we do have the choice (sometimes) to take a family member off of life support.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Depression doesn't count? Being in a state that decreases your quality of life to that degree pretty much precludes depression!

It is the states duty to preserve life, and it's societies duty to do the same, let them do your job, they wouldn't let you kill someone, and you wouldn't want them to I hope, by the same token, they won't let you kill yourself, and you shouldn't want them too.
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MissLisa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Depression doesn't count? Being in a state that decreases your quality of life to that degree pretty much precludes depression!

It is the states duty to preserve life, and it's societies duty to do the same, let them do your job, they wouldn't let you kill someone, and you wouldn't want them to I hope, by the same token, they won't let you kill yourself, and you shouldn't want them too.


Depression is not a terminal illness (like cancer for instance) and is not even in the same ballpark that I am referring to. But in that vein however, I think if I wanted to end my life early regardless of my state of health... I should be allowed to. I would never ask anyone to assist me in that case (nor am I planning on opting out... just to be clear here Wink , I rather enjoy life myself)... but I view it as MY life and not the states life.... then again, they do seem to control every aspect of life.. perhaps I am simply under the illusion it is my life. (smile)
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's your life to live, but if you want to do seriously bodily harm to yourself your considered to have some serious psychological problems, in which case you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions like this.
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