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ringwormbettie
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There should be separation to a degree. In some ways, we have adopted Christianity, or at least their ten commandments as our moral backbone. People tend to vote according to their beliefs and Christians vote according to theirs. This takes away rights from people outside of their religion in some cases. In America, majority rules so we are a Christian nation.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ringwormbettie wrote:
There should be separation to a degree. In some ways, we have adopted Christianity, or at least their ten commandments as our moral backbone.


That is incorrect.

How well do you know the law?
You may be interested to know that exactly two of the tend commandments are in the american code of law, and those particular commandments are not by any means unique to the christian system of morality.

Quote:

People tend to vote according to their beliefs and Christians vote according to theirs. This takes away rights from people outside of their religion in some cases. In America, majority rules so we are a Christian nation.


In a democracy, the majority rules.

America is a republic. It's a republic for a reason.
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ringwormbettie
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
ringwormbettie wrote:
There should be separation to a degree. In some ways, we have adopted Christianity, or at least their ten commandments as our moral backbone.


That is incorrect.

How well do you know the law?
You may be interested to know that exactly two of the tend commandments are in the american code of law, and those particular commandments are not by any means unique to the christian system of morality.

Quote:

People tend to vote according to their beliefs and Christians vote according to theirs. This takes away rights from people outside of their religion in some cases. In America, majority rules so we are a Christian nation.


In a democracy, the majority rules.

America is a republic. It's a republic for a reason.

My bad.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thou shalt not kill- Yup thats in there.

Thou shalt not steal- Yup that too.

Thou shalt honour your mother and father- Pretty much, they basically own you for eighteen years.

Thou shalt keep the sabbath holy- There is argument over whether the sabbath is sunday or saturday, this results in what? The weekend, which you get paid extra for working on, according to the law.

Thou shalt not commit adultery- Yuppers.

Thou shalt not bear false witness- Defamation laws, laws against lying in court, or congress or publishing professional lies...

Thou shalt not hold any gods above me/use my name in vain- what book do we swear on in court again?

The idol one isn't really in there, nor the covet one, but thats only because it's hard to police thoughts.

Can someone explain to me the difference between america and a democracy? It seems whenever someone claims majority rules in america(something which is blatantly true, c'mon, really) they get this republic biz shoved in their faces, it may provide a little more protection, but not as much as you imply.
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Anym
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:

Can someone explain to me the difference between america and a democracy?


Al Gore is president in a democracy.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Thou shalt not kill- Yup thats in there.

Thou shalt not steal- Yup that too.


Those are the only two.

Quote:

Thou shalt honour your mother and father- Pretty much, they basically own you for eighteen years.


Being someone's property is different from honoring them. For example, if you smack your mother, they're not going to throw you in jail. (although you might get a fine, if they could prove it - that's because you can't smack anyone)

The bible, on the other hand, says that children who strike their parents must be stoned to death.

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Thou shalt keep the sabbath holy- There is argument over whether the sabbath is sunday or saturday, this results in what? The weekend, which you get paid extra for working on, according to the law.


Pfft, maybe in australia. Not in the united states. And even then, the laws on that probably vary by state.

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Thou shalt not commit adultery- Yuppers.


No. Again, maybe you can't do that in australia, but in the U.S., adultery is legal. Some states still have it as illegal in their written law, but if anyone actually tried to enforce it, the supreme court would shoot it down.

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Thou shalt not bear false witness- Defamation laws, laws against lying in court, or congress or publishing professional lies...


But can you lie to your girlfriend about sleeping with her friend?
In the united states you can. Laws relating to lying have little or nothing to do with the act of lying itself - they have to do with violating the rights of others.

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Thou shalt not hold any gods above me/use my name in vain- what book do we swear on in court again?


In the united states? None. You can if you want, and some courts offer it by default, but there's no legal requirement to swear on the bible.

Quote:

The idol one isn't really in there, nor the covet one, but thats only because it's hard to police thoughts.


No, it's because the united states government is not, nor ever was, based on the christian religion.

Quote:

Can someone explain to me the difference between america and a democracy? It seems whenever someone claims majority rules in america(something which is blatantly true, c'mon, really) they get this republic biz shoved in their faces, it may provide a little more protection, but not as much as you imply.


In a democracy, everything is decided by a vote. Raise taxes? Everyone votes. Longer jail terms? Everyone votes. Etc.

In a republic, the citizens choose representatives from amongst themselves to do the governing. It's democratic in that people vote on the representatives, but it's not actually a democracy because nothing is decided by letting the citizens vote directly.

There are very few real democracies left in the united states. Some of the few are in places like massachusetts (such as in the town i grew up in). In such places, all town policies are decided by voting, and any resident that's registered to vote can show up, have their say, and vote on the measure.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:

Quote:

Thou shalt honour your mother and father- Pretty much, they basically own you for eighteen years.


Being someone's property is different from honoring them. For example, if you smack your mother, they're not going to throw you in jail. (although you might get a fine, if they could prove it - that's because you can't smack anyone)

The bible, on the other hand, says that children who strike their parents must be stoned to death.


We're talking about the ten commandments, not the other stuff, and if you don't honour your father and mother, by law, they can restrict you in so many activities it isn't even funny.

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Thou shalt keep the sabbath holy- There is argument over whether the sabbath is sunday or saturday, this results in what? The weekend, which you get paid extra for working on, according to the law.


Pfft, maybe in australia. Not in the united states. And even then, the laws on that probably vary by state.


You don't get time and a half?

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Thou shalt not commit adultery- Yuppers.


No. Again, maybe you can't do that in australia, but in the U.S., adultery is legal. Some states still have it as illegal in their written law, but if anyone actually tried to enforce it, the supreme court would shoot it down.


But if a divorce follows you will lose all your stuff no?

Quote:
Quote:

Thou shalt not bear false witness- Defamation laws, laws against lying in court, or congress or publishing professional lies...


But can you lie to your girlfriend about sleeping with her friend?
In the united states you can. Laws relating to lying have little or nothing to do with the act of lying itself - they have to do with violating the rights of others.


The commandment is 'bear false witness', the bible is very open to interpretation, perhaps this is what it meant. white lies are allowed.

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Thou shalt not hold any gods above me/use my name in vain- what book do we swear on in court again?


In the united states? None. You can if you want, and some courts offer it by default, but there's no legal requirement to swear on the bible.


Not a requirement but it's an expectation.

Quote:
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The idol one isn't really in there, nor the covet one, but thats only because it's hard to police thoughts.


No, it's because the united states government is not, nor ever was, based on the christian religion.


Ya, it's not like the first people ever to colonize believed the bible word for word....

Quote:
Quote:

Can someone explain to me the difference between america and a democracy? It seems whenever someone claims majority rules in america(something which is blatantly true, c'mon, really) they get this republic biz shoved in their faces, it may provide a little more protection, but not as much as you imply.


In a democracy, everything is decided by a vote. Raise taxes? Everyone votes. Longer jail terms? Everyone votes. Etc.

In a republic, the citizens choose representatives from amongst themselves to do the governing. It's democratic in that people vote on the representatives, but it's not actually a democracy because nothing is decided by letting the citizens vote directly.

There are very few real democracies left in the united states. Some of the few are in places like massachusetts (such as in the town i grew up in). In such places, all town policies are decided by voting, and any resident that's registered to vote can show up, have their say, and vote on the measure.
[/quote]

So I am also not in a democracy? The way you describe it the only form of democracy is a direct democracy, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a subsection of democracy called direct democracy no?
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
if you don't honour your father and mother, by law, they can restrict you in so many activities it isn't even funny.


And they can also restrict you even if you DO honor them. The honoring is functionally irrelevent.

Quote:

Quote:

Pfft, maybe in australia. Not in the united states. And even then, the laws on that probably vary by state.


You don't get time and a half?


I think some companies give you time and a half, but i don't know that it's required by law.

And, like i said, it may vary by state.

Quote:
Quote:

No. Again, maybe you can't do that in australia, but in the U.S., adultery is legal. Some states still have it as illegal in their written law, but if anyone actually tried to enforce it, the supreme court would shoot it down.


But if a divorce follows you will lose all your stuff no?


I'm not sure. You can lose your shirt in a divorce even if you don't commit adultery. You'd have to ask a lawyer for the intimate details of the matter.

It certainly is not illegal to commit adultery, though.

Quote:

The commandment is 'bear false witness', the bible is very open to interpretation, perhaps this is what it meant. white lies are allowed.


See, now you're getting into the realm of bullshit. You can make the bible say whatever you want it to say, if you "interpret" it right.

Quote:

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In the united states? None. You can if you want, and some courts offer it by default, but there's no legal requirement to swear on the bible.


Not a requirement but it's an expectation.


Not by the law it isn't.

Quote:

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No, it's because the united states government is not, nor ever was, based on the christian religion.


Ya, it's not like the first people ever to colonize believed the bible word for word....


What i just said is taken almost verbatim from a treaty between the U.S. and the barbary states, written and signed by john adams, and approved by congress and the president (who, i believe, was george washington at the time).

"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
-John Adams, Treaty of tripoli

Google it.

Quote:

So I am also not in a democracy? The way you describe it the only form of democracy is a direct democracy, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a subsection of democracy called direct democracy no?


I described to you true democracy, in which the majority rules.

In the united states, the majority does not rule. The government is, in fact, specifically designed to prevent that from happening.
(That's why we have that god-forsaken electoral college...)
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. The government can send you to jail even if you don't steal anything, doesn't mean thou shalt not steal isn't in there.

2. Surely you have overtime?

3. But if you commit aduiltery then you are viewed as the cause of the split, and because of this you usually have to pay more than regular.

4. Well, you can't make it say that strawberry waffles are about the 27th thing god created.

5. Of course it is! Thats what they give you when you go up there, it only just got changed so you didn't need it.

6. Oh right, because people can never lie. Besides, I'm not saying they looked at christianity and wrote down the rules, but rather that christianities rules are so embedded in western society morality and self-evident truths have a religous slant.

7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
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Anym
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Let's apply the big 10 to America.

1.you shall have no other gods before me.

We that's flushed down the toilet, right Buddha.

2.Worshiping Idols

Once again my giant gold Buddha statue

3.You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

God Dammit doesn't get you arrested.

4. Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.

I work every Sunday this month.

5.Honor your father and your mother.

Yea considering in this country it's polite to do so but not a law. Hell you can get yourself divorced from you parents under the right conditions.

6.You shall not murder.

We have one(if you can't get away with it)

7.Neither shall you commit adultery

Lawsuits and Divorce but not jail time.

8. Neither shall you steal

we have a second one that is actually written down.

9.Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

That depends I can saw I'm the king of France and not get in trouble for it. But Scooter Libby gets a beat down. So it depends were, when and to whom.

10.neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife

Yea no law against it. Just maybe a divorce.
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JohnMcClane
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
1. The government can send you to jail even if you don't steal anything, doesn't mean thou shalt not steal isn't in there.
Wait a second, because the government can send us to jail the commandment "Thou shalt not steal" is part of America's foundation?

Quote:
2. Surely you have overtime?
Yes, we have overtimes. And it is exactly that, overtime. You have to work your regular work hours before overtime kicks in. That is why it's called overtime. There's no law that requires you to automatically get overtime for working on the weekend.

Quote:
3. But if you commit aduiltery then you are viewed as the cause of the split, and because of this you usually have to pay more than regular.
Doesn't make it illegal, just means you can sue for more then usual.

Quote:
4. Well, you can't make it say that strawberry waffles are about the 27th thing god created.
Anything in the context of the passage is probably what he meant.

Quote:
5. Of course it is! Thats what they give you when you go up there, it only just got changed so you didn't need it.
No, it is not. If you go up there and say "I don't believe the Bible," they cannot make you swear on it.

Quote:
6. Oh right, because people can never lie. Besides, I'm not saying they looked at christianity and wrote down the rules, but rather that christianities rules are so embedded in western society morality and self-evident truths have a religous slant.
Wait a second, you're saying that our founding fathers lied about the most important part of our society? Not to mention lying about that would be like straight people lying about themselves being gay. It's just plain silly.

Two major problems with Christian morals. One, they copied from other religions/theology and two, writing something down before everyone else doesn't make it "theirs" (Christians). Besides, was the entire world an uncontrollable evil infested world before Christianity came along? Nope, not a single piece of evidence to conclude that the world was ultimately better because of one religion.

Quote:
7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
Republic - democracy: a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them

Democracy - majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

Democracy has adopted it's definition to include all types of governments ruled by the people, that includes republic. So in one sense, you're both right.
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
1. The government can send you to jail even if you don't steal anything, doesn't mean thou shalt not steal isn't in there.


The govenrment cannot legitimately send you to jail for theft if you haven't stolen anything.

Parents CAN legitimately restrict your freedoms regardless of your behavior.

Quote:

2. Surely you have overtime?


Yes, but it has nothing to do with weekends. It has to do with the total number of hours that you work in a week.

Quote:

3. But if you commit aduiltery then you are viewed as the cause of the split, and because of this you usually have to pay more than regular.


Like i said, i don't know the particulars. You'd have to look it up.

But also, like i said, it's not illegal.

Quote:

4. Well, you can't make it say that strawberry waffles are about the 27th thing god created.


You know what i mean Razz

Quote:

5. Of course it is! Thats what they give you when you go up there, it only just got changed so you didn't need it.


Like i said, it changes depending on the state. They don't even give you a bible around here.

Quote:

6. Oh right, because people can never lie. Besides, I'm not saying they looked at christianity and wrote down the rules, but rather that christianities rules are so embedded in western society morality and self-evident truths have a religous slant.


The founders of the united states did not have "christian morals" in mind when they made this country. Their thoughts on the matter are, in fact, well-documented - they wrote them down.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Lester wrote:
1. The government can send you to jail even if you don't steal anything, doesn't mean thou shalt not steal isn't in there.


The govenrment cannot legitimately send you to jail for theft if you haven't stolen anything.

Parents CAN legitimately restrict your freedoms regardless of your behavior.


Innocent people are convicted all the time. There is also child services.

Quote:
Quote:

2. Surely you have overtime?


Yes, but it has nothing to do with weekends. It has to do with the total number of hours that you work in a week.


Must be different in australia.

Quote:
Quote:

3. But if you commit aduiltery then you are viewed as the cause of the split, and because of this you usually have to pay more than regular.


Like i said, i don't know the particulars. You'd have to look it up.

But also, like i said, it's not illegal.


But reinforced by the law at least.

Quote:
Quote:

4. Well, you can't make it say that strawberry waffles are about the 27th thing god created.


You know what i mean Razz


I do, but I think your wrong, there is after all, only a certain number of ways to interpret things.

Quote:
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5. Of course it is! Thats what they give you when you go up there, it only just got changed so you didn't need it.


Like i said, it changes depending on the state. They don't even give you a bible around here.


Where's 'here'??

Quote:
Quote:

6. Oh right, because people can never lie. Besides, I'm not saying they looked at christianity and wrote down the rules, but rather that christianities rules are so embedded in western society morality and self-evident truths have a religous slant.


The founders of the united states did not have "christian morals" in mind when they made this country. Their thoughts on the matter are, in fact, well-documented - they wrote them down.
[/quote]

Again, you place a lot of trust in people who had it in their best interest to remove themselves as far from the british way of life(including christianity) as possible.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Most I dealt with in my response to exton, but a few I'll clear up.

Quote:
6. Oh right, because people can never lie. Besides, I'm not saying they looked at christianity and wrote down the rules, but rather that christianities rules are so embedded in western society morality and self-evident truths have a religous slant.
Wait a second, you're saying that our founding fathers lied about the most important part of our society? Not to mention lying about that would be like straight people lying about themselves being gay. It's just plain silly.

Two major problems with Christian morals. One, they copied from other religions/theology and two, writing something down before everyone else doesn't make it "theirs" (Christians). Besides, was the entire world an uncontrollable evil infested world before Christianity came along? Nope, not a single piece of evidence to conclude that the world was ultimately better because of one religion.[/quote]

I'm not supporting christianity, just saying that it's had a big effect on every western country and it's laws. Besides, English borrows from other languages, are you gonna give it up?

Quote:
Quote:
7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
Republic - democracy: a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them

Democracy - majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

Democracy has adopted it's definition to include all types of governments ruled by the people, that includes republic. So in one sense, you're both right.


At least one of these is taken care of for good.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anym wrote:
Let's apply the big 10 to America.

1.you shall have no other gods before me.

We that's flushed down the toilet, right Buddha.

2.Worshiping Idols

Once again my giant gold Buddha statue


Most have been dealt with, but these two I have to take issue with, Buddha is not a god, never claims to be, and the Buddha statues are tools for focusing, you do not worship them, these hair-splitters are why people can be both christian and buddhist.
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