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Belief or unbelief, which is more damaging to society?
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Johnguitars
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject: Belief or unbelief, which is more damaging to society? Reply with quote
While it is easy to switch on our TVs and see people of different faiths or even the same faith killing each other, is the alternative, namely an atheistic society likely to be better or worse?

The question is not whether atheism is true but given that it was to be accepted as such, would the inevitable conclusion that, "There is no god therefore there is no judgement, therefore anything goes!" be good or bad for the survival of mankind?
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exton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: Belief or unbelief, which is more damaging to society? Reply with quote
Johnguitars wrote:
While it is easy to switch on our TVs and see people of different faiths or even the same faith killing each other, is the alternative, namely an atheistic society likely to be better or worse?


It's hard to say. Good data is hard to come by. As far as the statistics we have go, it seems that atheists are actually substantially less likely to be criminals. Here in the united states, anyway.

But really, crime isn't what we have to worry about where religion is concerned. Anyone can be a good citizen, regardless of their beliefs.

The benefits of atheism lie elsewhere.

Quote:

The question is not whether atheism is true but given that it was to be accepted as such, would the inevitable conclusion that, "There is no god therefore there is no judgement, therefore anything goes!" be good or bad for the survival of mankind?


Do you really believe that atheists think that way?
I'm guessing you don't actually know any atheists.

Here's another question:
Who's the more moral person - the one who needs enforcement by cosmic powers in order to compel him to act rightly, or the person who acts rightly for its own sake?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Truth, yea, I think thats gonna make a better basis for a society.

Have you ever heard of humanism??
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JohnMcClane
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ooooo, nice quote.
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Johnguitars
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnMcClane wrote:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg


Strange, this would imply that every pilot who ever dropped a bomb on an innocent civillian must have been doing it because of his religious beliefs!
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JohnMcClane
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Johnguitars wrote:


Strange, this would imply that every pilot who ever dropped a bomb on an innocent civillian must have been doing it because of his religious beliefs!
No, they drop it on "innocent" people because we get the coordinates wrong. As for when we get it right, they're just doing what they're told to do. If you had an army full of people that questioned things because of morality, you'd have quite a problem on your hands.
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exton
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Johnguitars wrote:
JohnMcClane wrote:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg

Strange, this would imply that every pilot who ever dropped a bomb on an innocent civillian must have been doing it because of his religious beliefs!


Unintentional killing is not evil.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnMcClane wrote:
Johnguitars wrote:


Strange, this would imply that every pilot who ever dropped a bomb on an innocent civillian must have been doing it because of his religious beliefs!
No, they drop it on "innocent" people because we get the coordinates wrong. As for when we get it right, they're just doing what they're told to do. If you had an army full of people that questioned things because of morality, you'd have quite a problem on your hands.


2 posts and already I'm hooked, you charmer you.
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JohnMcClane
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
2 posts and already I'm hooked, you charmer you.
Haha, thanks. I prefer quality, not quantity. Wink
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Johnguitars
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnMcClane wrote:
Johnguitars wrote:


Strange, this would imply that every pilot who ever dropped a bomb on an innocent civillian must have been doing it because of his religious beliefs!
No, they drop it on "innocent" people because we get the coordinates wrong. As for when we get it right, they're just doing what they're told to do. If you had an army full of people that questioned things because of morality, you'd have quite a problem on your hands.


Only obeying orders? Now where have I heard that before? Oh yes it was Nuremberg.
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Johnguitars
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Johnguitars wrote:
JohnMcClane wrote:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg

Strange, this would imply that every pilot who ever dropped a bomb on an innocent civillian must have been doing it because of his religious beliefs!


Unintentional killing is not evil.


There is a law in most civilised countries known as manslaughter. Not, perhaps, as evil as murder but still worthy of a long time in jail. Go tell it to the judge!
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JohnMcClane
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Johnguitars wrote:
Only obeying orders? Now where have I heard that before? Oh yes it was Nuremberg.
So you're telling me you want a military full of people that think for themselves? If our soldiers thought about morality and practiced it, we would have a shit storm on our hands. "Thou shalt not kill" is a fine example. If our soldiers practiced this, we'd be funding a bunch of real sized G.I. Joe dolls.

But by all means, you can believe that our soldiers have a sense of morality on the battlefield but the real thing is, they're trained machines designed to accomplish tasks.

Speaking of "obeying orders", My Lai Massacre is a much better example. There was absolutely no morality there, they just obeyed orders. Tell me, did our soldiers commit that themselves, or were they just "obeying orders"?

Johnguitars wrote:
There is a law in most civilised countries known as manslaughter. Not, perhaps, as evil as murder but still worthy of a long time in jail. Go tell it to the judge!
Well if that's the case, we better put anyone who kills an Iraqi in jail. Why is it in war times, "manslaughter" becomes null and void? Because they're just obeying orders.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Johnguitars wrote:

There is a law in most civilised countries known as manslaughter. Not, perhaps, as evil as murder but still worthy of a long time in jail. Go tell it to the judge!


"Illegal" is not the same as "evil".

And you never responded to my first post.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
We should start imposing Godwin's law.
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