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Belief or unbelief, which is more damaging to society?
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Because in the end you have little if any control of your life.


I'm not sure. How do you mean?

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Oh because death is better than life? Even a crap life? Bullshit.


Suicide is rarely a rational choice. It's commonly an emotional one. Hence, the bit about caring.

It's hard to understand how someone could come to the conclusion that death is a good option, if you've never really been depressed before. It's possible to understand, of course, but it's not easy; the mentally healthy are often incredulous at the idea that life could hurt so much that someone would want to do away with it.

I suppose i'd describe it as, it's a lot like what being in hell is supposed to feel like.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just like I said, you may be able to control small parts of it, but if the world 'wants'(you know what i mean) you to have a bad day, you have a bad day.

The mentally healthy are just the ones who don't let themselves feel all of that pain. Check out this book at your local library.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

"The full realization of one's own mortality is mostly unbearable, absolutely terrifying and horrific."
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exton
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Just like I said, you may be able to control small parts of it, but if the world 'wants'(you know what i mean) you to have a bad day, you have a bad day.


Ah, okay.

Well, i disagree. To an extent.

You don't get to choose what the rest of the universe does.
But you always get to choose how you respond to your conditions.

Quote:

The mentally healthy are just the ones who don't let themselves feel all of that pain. Check out this book at your local library.


Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple.

When someone is depressed, he cannot simply suck it up and feel better.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

"The full realization of one's own mortality is mostly unbearable, absolutely terrifying and horrific."


That's only if you have the expectation of being immortal.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Then why does everyone crack under torture?

No of course not, once the mental barriers you put in the way of the truth are broken down it is incredibly hard to build them up again. After all, we are conditioned from an early age to make them as strong as possible, it takes years for us to be 'mature'.

It says full realization, not just any realization.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
Then why does everyone crack under torture?


I don't know that everyone does (although i wouldn't be surprised). But say they do: they crack because they decide to.

Of course, it raises the question of whether the person you started with is the same person that you end with, where torture is concerned.

Quote:

No of course not, once the mental barriers you put in the way of the truth are broken down it is incredibly hard to build them up again. After all, we are conditioned from an early age to make them as strong as possible, it takes years for us to be 'mature'.


What makes you believe that the truth about life must necessarily cause a person grief?

Quote:

It says full realization, not just any realization.


That's the "no true scottsman" fallacy.

A person making the claim that you are can always say "well, if you're happy, then you have no full realization!", regardless of the truth.

That is, your claim defines "the full realization" as being necessarily traumatic, without justification.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
They don't all take the same amount of time, but they all crack. So there are some cases that it doesn't matter what you choose to do, the end result is set.

Because, as is described in that book, mental health is merely a system of socially acceptable lies.

I wasn't really rebutting, I was just clarifying for you that you don't neccesarily have to say to yourself, I will live forever, for it to be horriffic.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:

Because, as is described in that book, mental health is merely a system of socially acceptable lies.


It would seem that this book presents a deceptively distorted view of reality.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's based off the majority of psychological work in the past century.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm sure it is.

Dianetics claims to be based on scientific experiment, too.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It has actual excerpts from Freud and Otto and Jung and a multitude of others, the guy won a pulitzer prize for non-fiction!
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
It has actual excerpts from Freud and Otto and Jung and a multitude of others


Then you know that it's pseudoscientific bullshit.

Contrary to popular belief, freud and jung are full of shit. (I'm not familiar with otto)
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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Freud is the father of modern psychiatry.

While he *was* wrong, and the book says this, it was him that started the science.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
And? Authority is proof of nothing.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
While yes psychiatry is always a shady area, the book won a pulitzer prize for non-fiction, you don't get one of those if your works based on shit all.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd be impressed if it won a nobel prize in science, but a literature prize doesn't do much for me.
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