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imnotbncre8ive
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Greetings all, I am new to this forum. From what few threads I have read, there seem to be very knowledgeable posters here, and thus I would value your input.

I am almost done reading Christopher Hedges's "American Fascists: The Christian Rgiht and the War On America". I bought it yesterday after listening to a few of his interviews. I would be glad to hear any opinions regarding the Christian Dominionist movement or your thoughts of this book. What I have read thus far has been both eye-opening and unsettling.

I once thought the efforts to include Creationism and Intelligent Design in school curricula were annoying and frustrating. Now, it seems dangerous and sinister after the greater goal was revealed to me.

The videos I have seen of "Jesus Camp" almost made me sick. The extreme intolerance, exploitation of youth and followers, and militant attitude are very threatening.

My question is: am I justified in being unsettled by the contents of this book? In your opinions, would, as Chris Hedges states, a period of instability (as a result of terrorist attack or war with Iran) be sufficient for these extremists to finally achieve the control they seek?
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
imnotbncre8ive wrote:

My question is: am I justified in being unsettled by the contents of this book?


You're more than justified.

When i read about such things, i feel like i'm reading about people who are intentionally spreading an infectious disease.

Quote:

In your opinions, would, as Chris Hedges states, a period of instability (as a result of terrorist attack or war with Iran) be sufficient for these extremists to finally achieve the control they seek?


I think it would help them to spread their ideas - they offer certainty and mental stability, which are both in great demand during times of uncertainty and social instability. I don't know if it would be sufficient for them to get all the control that they want, though.

Granted i've not read hedges' book, either.
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cornopean
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
imnotbncre8ive wrote:

I am almost done reading Christopher Hedges's "American Fascists: The Christian Rgiht and the War On America". I bought it yesterday after listening to a few of his interviews. I would be glad to hear any opinions regarding the Christian Dominionist movement or your thoughts of this book. What I have read thus far has been both eye-opening and unsettling.

first the christian dominionists or the christian reconstructionists as they are called are a tiny minority amongst american christians. and even these people are utterly harmless. Gary North is such a person and he regularly contributes to Lew Rockwell's site. www.lewrockwell.com


Quote:

I once thought the efforts to include Creationism and Intelligent Design in school curricula were annoying and frustrating. Now, it seems dangerous and sinister after the greater goal was revealed to me.

please understand that no christian is trying to force intelligent design on anyone. they merely want science teachers and school boards to be free to include references to it if they so desire. the christians are advocating MORE choice here not less. it is the left in this country that is major threat to our liberties. the question is simply this......who should decide what children are taught in public schools? the locally elected school board or a bunch of judges? christians conservatives say the school board. the left says the judges. the reason for this is b/c the left wants to force their worldview on everyone else. that is why they have to use the courts to advance their agenda. they can't win elections and towns and cities do not elect them to school boards.



Quote:
The videos I have seen of "Jesus Camp" almost made me sick. The extreme intolerance, exploitation of youth and followers, and militant attitude are very threatening.

do you understand the difference between battling sin and evil in one's self and in society and taking up guns and swords to advance Christianity? think about this one....we Christians regularly sing a song with these lyrics:

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Refrain
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.


Now do you seriously think that any Christian interprets this as a call to take up arms against non-Christians? I hope the answer to this is obvious.


Quote:
My question is: am I justified in being unsettled by the contents of this book?

go to any fundamentalist christian church. mingle with the people. listen to the sermon. you don't have to agree with it. just go and listen. find out for yourself. when you are there, ask yourself....are these people dangerous? are these people a threat to liberty and a free society?


Quote:
In your opinions, would, as Chris Hedges states, a period of instability (as a result of terrorist attack or war with Iran) be sufficient for these extremists to finally achieve the control they seek?

what extremists are you talking about? I don't know of a single christian who wants to take over the govt of the USA. I know some very radical fundamental christian folk. not one of them has ever stated any desire to take over the country. yes, they want to elect christian politicians. yes, they want laws passed that reflect christian values. is that what you mean by extremism? but isn't everyone trying to get laws pass that reflect their values?

at any rate, I respect your open mindedness and questions. I don't want you to take my opinion for it. I want you to find out for yourself. Get the phone book, look up churches. Find a fundamentalist christian church. it will probably be a baptist or a reformed church of some sort. show up on Sunday morning. services generally start at 9:30. mingle a bit. talk to some people. ask to sit down with the pastor. ask him what the church's goals are with regards to politics. Don't take other people's words for it. you owe it to yourself and christians to make an independent unbiased inquiry. best wishes bro.
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Quote:
it is the left in this country that is major threat to our liberties.


Eroding our freedom to be dumb as hell one school board at a time.

Quote:
the question is simply this......who should decide what children are taught in public schools? the locally elected school board or a bunch of judges?


Neither.

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the left says the judges.


Dead wrong. The left say experts in the fields. Judges are simply a way to enforce policy changes, and they are used by both sides of this issue.

Quote:
the reason for this is b/c the left wants to force their worldview on everyone else. that is why they have to use the courts to advance their agenda.


lolololololololol its a big leftist conspiracy now

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they can't win elections and towns and cities do not elect them to school boards.


I'd love to see you prove that.

Quote:
Now do you seriously think that any Christian interprets this as a call to take up arms against non-Christians? I hope the answer to this is obvious.


This is a red herring for two reasons. One, you create your own point and address it and say "how could you think that about this?" when in reality he pointed directly to Jesus Camp. Two, no one mentioned anything about Christians taking up arms against non-Christians. To repeat what did say: "The extreme intolerance, exploitation of youth and followers, and militant attitude are very threatening."

Quote:
go to any fundamentalist christian church. mingle with the people. listen to the sermon. you don't have to agree with it. just go and listen. find out for yourself. when you are there, ask yourself....are these people dangerous? are these people a threat to liberty and a free society?


That's actually some great advice. See first-hand exactly what it is Chris Hedges is talking about.

Quote:
ask him what the church's goals are with regards to politics.


Please, report back what the pastor responds with this. The church could be in violation of IRS tax-exempt policy. Wink
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cornopean
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
I encourage anyone to look at the different ways the party's conventions were treated. how does the GOP view the democratic convention? how do the democrats view the GOP convention?

did any GOP disrupt the democrat convention? was the attempt even made?

but look at this group!

and they just got caught making up urine bombs, etc. etc.
http://www.twincities.com/ci_1.....st_emailed

here is video:
http://www.foundingbloggers.co.....sota-raid/

These people are on your side of the aisle libs!! do you care? are you going to denounce them?

(they won't. watch.)
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
cornopean wrote:
I encourage anyone to look at the different ways the party's conventions were treated. how does the GOP view the democratic convention? how do the democrats view the GOP convention?

did any GOP disrupt the democrat convention? was the attempt even made?

but look at this group!

and they just got caught making up urine bombs, etc. etc.
http://www.twincities.com/ci_1.....st_emailed

here is video:
http://www.foundingbloggers.co.....sota-raid/

These people are on your side of the aisle libs!! do you care? are you going to denounce them?

(they won't. watch.)


I have never seen anything quite so off-topic on these forums since I started posting.

No, I'm not denouncing them, just like I don't have to personally denounce each and every liberal, gay, atheist, Unitarian Universalist, American, or anyone else I've ever found myself sharing an idea with simply because they did something stupid or committed a crime. It's an incredibly stupid waste of time and the urine bombs and slingshots are likely criminal, but I'm not denouncing every person you run to the boards crying about. They aren't me and they therefore don't speak for me.
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chevydriver1123
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Toxic wrote:
They aren't me and they therefore don't speak for me.


QFT, people like Corno and others believe we are all some sort of collective unit and have to be responsible for each other regardless of distance.
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cornopean
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Toxic wrote:

No, I'm not denouncing them, just like I don't have to personally denounce each and every liberal, gay, atheist, Unitarian Universalist, American, or anyone else I've ever found myself sharing an idea with simply because they did something stupid or committed a crime. It's an incredibly stupid waste of time and the urine bombs and slingshots are likely criminal, but I'm not denouncing every person you run to the boards crying about. They aren't me and they therefore don't speak for me.

but they ARE FROM YOUR PARTY!! just like I denounce Ann Coulter and the losers from Phelps church. they are from my party, so I denounce them. but you will never denounce the lefties from your party. ?
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cornopean
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
chevydriver1123 wrote:
Toxic wrote:
They aren't me and they therefore don't speak for me.


QFT, people like Corno and others believe we are all some sort of collective unit and have to be responsible for each other regardless of distance.

when people from my party act like jerks, I am responsible for making public my disgust with it. I am disgusted with Ted Stevens. I am disgusted with the Phelps family. I am disgusted with some of McCain's positions. I am disgusted with Bush's growth of the federal govt.

If you identify yourself with a political party, then you need to be clear about what you agree with and what you don't. Otherwise, we assume that you agree with you party's stance.
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Quote:
but they ARE FROM YOUR PARTY!!


No they aren't.

Quote:
but you will never denounce the lefties from your party. ?


I thought I made myself pretty clear.
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Quote:
when people from my party act like jerks, I am responsible for making public my disgust with it.


No, you're responsible for making public your disgust with your party, not the people who claim to be a part of it. In the same manner that no one would expect you to apologize for every murder or crime a white man committed because you're white, you aren't expected to apologize for the actions of every Republican ever.

Quote:
I am disgusted with Ted Stevens. I am disgusted with the Phelps family. I am disgusted with some of McCain's positions. I am disgusted with Bush's growth of the federal govt.


While you should be disgusted with the Phelps family (like most people are), you don't have to distance yourself from every act they have ever committed or ever will commit. This is completely different from Ted Stevens or George Bush. Ted Stevens and George Bush REPRESENT your party! When you endorse the Republican Party, you are saying "I also endorse the representatives of the party and expect them to voice opinions I share". You endorse the party because you believe in the ideas of opinions of some of the people who represent the party. Do you see what I'm saying?

Politicians—the official representatives of your party—are people you give permission to speak for you in public, and if they say things that are wrong or you disagree with, you should distance yourself from them. You cannot control nor do you endorse members of the party (other random citizens), and you aren't responsible for their actions. Some things deserve public ire just to make your stance or position (the Phelps family), but you don't have to apologize for every stupid action a fellow member of your party (or race, or creed, or religion, or hair color, etc. etc.) has ever committed.

In the same way, I don't have to apologize for everything anyone who doesn't officially represent the Democratic Party has ever said or done because when I join the Democratic Party, I'm not endorsing the stupidity of my fellow members, I'm endorsing the stupidity of Democratic politics. Wink

So yes, it's pathetic that these people are building urine bombs. I disagree that they are part of the Democratic Party, but even if they were, I wouldn't feel it was my responsibility to say "they're terrible and trust me I have nothing to do with them". There's no reason to assume automatically I do support them until I say otherwise.
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cornopean
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Toxic wrote:
Quote:
but they ARE FROM YOUR PARTY!!


No they aren't.

you can deny this but these protesters claim to from the left. and maybe I shouldn't have used the word "party". I meant they are from your ideological side of the aisle. they are liberals or leftists or progressives. hence, you need to state your agreement or otherwise.
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Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
Quote:
you can deny this but these protesters claim to from the left.


Really? Where do they claim that?

Quote:
hence, you need to state your agreement or otherwise.


I spent plenty of time going over this in my last post. I know it's long, but it explains why I'm not going to do what you demand.
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chevydriver1123
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
cornopean wrote:
chevydriver1123 wrote:
Toxic wrote:
They aren't me and they therefore don't speak for me.


QFT, people like Corno and others believe we are all some sort of collective unit and have to be responsible for each other regardless of distance.

when people from my party act like jerks, I am responsible for making public my disgust with it.


Says who the media?

Quote:
I am disgusted with Ted Stevens. I am disgusted with the Phelps family. I am disgusted with some of McCain's positions. I am disgusted with Bush's growth of the federal govt.


Bull

Quote:
If you identify yourself with a political party, then you need to be clear about what you agree with and what you don't.


No I dont have to responsible for what a bunch of idiots do. This is an example of right wing political correctness



Quote:
Otherwise, we assume that you agree with you party's stance.


Thats nice, Im not a Democrat. Your spin is nothing but lies and collectivism. Im not responsible for someone else's behavior other than my own, if you right wingers want to engage in groupthink be my guest.
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cornopean
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: American Fascists by Chris Hedges Reply with quote
chevydriver1123 wrote:
Your spin is nothing but lies and collectivism. Im not responsible for someone else's behavior other than my own, if you right wingers want to engage in groupthink be my guest.

I am a collectivist?
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