Register :: Log in :: Profile :: Mail   


Agnostic Christmas
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    LVC Home // Atheism Versus Religion
Author Message
Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:40 am    Post subject: Agnostic Christmas Reply with quote
The Agnostic Christmas.



by Robert G. Ingersoll



The Journal, New York, December 25, 1892.



**** ****



AGAIN we celebrate the victory of Light over Darkness, of the God of day over the hosts of night. Again Samson is victorious

over Delilah, and Hercules triumphs once more over Omphale. In the embrace of Isis, Osiris rises from the dead, and the

scowling Typhon is defeated once more. Again Apollo, with unerring aim, with his arrow from the quiver of light, destroys the

serpent of shadow. This is the festival of Thor, of Baldur and of Prometheus. Again Buddha by a miracle escapes from the tyrant

of Madura, Zoroaster foils the King, Bacchus laughs at the rage of Cadmus, and Chrishna eludes the tyrant.



This is the festival of the sun-god, and as such let its observance be universal.



This is the great day of the first religion, the mother of all religions -- the worship of the sun.



Sun worship is not only the first, but the most natural and most reasonable of all. And not only the most natural and the most

reasonable, but by far the most poetic, the most beautiful.



The sun is the god of benefits, of growth, of life, of warmth, of happiness, of joy. The sun is the all-seeing, the all-pitying, the

all-loving.



This bright God knew no hatred, no malice, never sought for revenge.



All evil qualities were in the breast of the God of darkness, of shadow, of night. And so I say again, this is the festival of Light.

This is the anniversary of the triumph of the Sun over the hosts of Darkness.



Let us all hope for the triumph of Light -- of Right and Reason -- for the victory of Fact over Falsehood, of Science over

Superstition.



And so hoping, let us celebrate the venerable festival of the Sun. --
Back to top
Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"When I became convinced that the Universe is natural that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom ... For the first time, I was free ... I stood erect and joyously faced all worlds. And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain ... And then I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still."

~Robert G. Ingersoll "Why I Am An Agnostic", 1896, quoted in Joseph Lewis' speech "Ingersoll the Magnificent"
Back to top
His_Princess
Newbie


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Earth :D

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agnostic Christmas isnt this an oxymoron?

Definition of an Agnostic

ag∑nos∑tic (g-nstk) KEY

NOUN:


One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism

http://education.yahoo.com/ref.....y/agnostic

Defintion of Christmas

Christ∑mas (krsms) KEY

NOUN:

A Christian feast commemorating the birth of Jesus.
December 25, the day on which this feast is celebrated.
Christmastide

http://education.yahoo.com/ref...../Christmas

Who ever celebrates Christmas and is in fact not Christian is a big hypocrite period. They can create there own little holiday for this day (December 25th) but then its not Christmas its a different holiday all together.
Back to top
JesusLopezViejo
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 502
Location: Tri-State

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess wrote:
Agnostic Christmas isnt this an oxymoron?

Definition of an Agnostic

ag∑nos∑tic (g-nstk) KEY

NOUN:


One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism

http://education.yahoo.com/ref.....y/agnostic

Defintion of Christmas

Christ∑mas (krsms) KEY

NOUN:

A Christian feast commemorating the birth of Jesus.
December 25, the day on which this feast is celebrated.
Christmastide

http://education.yahoo.com/ref...../Christmas

Who ever celebrates Christmas and is in fact not Christian is a big hypocrite period. They can create there own little holiday for this day (December 25th) but then its not Christmas its a different holiday all together.


I find it funny that the definition of Xmas is the "birth of Jesus". Like it is true.
Back to top
His_Princess
Newbie


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Earth :D

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.churchyear.net/christmas.html

Another link ^^ I donít think you understand. Itís a Christian holiday so yeah Christians know it happened... I am also trying to point out that people who donít think Jesus was born on Christmas day should not celebrate the holiday its hypocritical and makes them look stupid in my opinion. Thatís like celebrating Honika, Pesach, Eid al-Adha, Kwanza Im none of these religious so I donít celebrate them. I believe you celebrate the holidays to your religion Iím weird like that, if the holiday it self is not a religious then thatís different but CHRISTmas is a Religious holiday period. Obviously people will celebrate what they want and thatís their business but in my opinion it makes them look naive.
Back to top
Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess wrote:
http://www.churchyear.net/christmas.html

Another link ^^ I donít think you understand. Itís a Christian holiday so yeah Christians know it happened... I am also trying to point out that people who donít think Jesus was born on Christmas day should not celebrate the holiday its hypocritical and makes them look stupid in my opinion. Thatís like celebrating Honika, Pesach, Eid al-Adha, Kwanza Im none of these religious so I donít celebrate them. I believe you celebrate the holidays to your religion Iím weird like that, if the holiday it self is not a religious then thatís different but CHRISTmas is a Religious holiday period. Obviously people will celebrate what they want and thatís their business but in my opinion it makes them look naive.



It's obvious you missed the entire point of the essay. It has nothing to do with agnostics celebrating "Christmas". It is directed at those who are "naive" about where and what the origins of the celebration is. It is to educate those who think that the 25th of December is exclusivley their celebration to claim it is the "birth of Christ".

If you read the essay you would see that it is entirely written on the historical fact that the original celebration, and what Christians robbed and called "Christmas", is actually the oldest celebration in human history. It is the celebration of the sun. You know - It is about that big burning thing in the sky that gives us life and new crop growth for harvest. It is also the shortest day of the year from sunrise to sunset. I think that actually falls on the 22nd, but you get the point. It (historically speaking) has nothing to do with the son of God.

Secondly, If you think that Christ was born on the 25th , it is you who are the naive one.

Christmas was not originally celebrated on the 25th. It is, in fact, unknown when Jesus was actually born (much like most of the history of Jesus). It was first proposed for that date around the year 170 and was not widely accepted until around 330. The pagan feast of winter solstice was celebrated on that date predating Christianity. It was also the celebration of Mithras - a sun God - also predating Christianity. Which by the way has many attributes that are the same as the story of Christ. Here's a link to read up on it: http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

Christian leaders hijacked the date out of convenience to spread the religion and gain power.

Finally, it is not "honika". It is Hanukkah.

Do some historical research before you start claiming others to be naive about your own religious celebrations. I would also suggest you do some research before you claim that your religion is the one true religion.
Back to top
PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
Known Associate
Known Associate


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 300
Location: Richmond, IN

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess, I almost agreed with you there. Because everything you said was technically true, unlike what you said in the other thread. But it's irrelevant to the topic, which has a slightly misleading name. The point of it is that Christmas, whether or not Jesus was in fact born on that day, is a mirror of many older traditions involving the sun and earth. Nobody ever called those things Christmas, why the hell would they want to? Christians have even less exclusive claim to celebration of light surrounding the solstice than they do to the city of Jerusalem. Christianity picked up pagan traditions to make conversion more attractive to pagans by integrating it with their current belief systems. Lights and candles on Christmas are symbols of the sun, and bringing a tree into the home is a druidic tradition symbolizing life throughout the dark of winter. And, of course, rabbits and eggs on easter are symbols of fertility. They have nothing to do with Christ's death or rebirth except that, magically, this celebration of rebirth "happens" to fall at the same time as earlier pagan festivals of spring, which were also about rebirth and fertility. But rabbits and eggs fit fertility better than they fit resurrection, right? We all understand what Christian holidays say they're about, but you can't possibly be saying they haven't integrated ideas from pagan traditions.
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess wrote:
http://www.churchyear.net/christmas.html

Another link ^^ I don’t think you understand. It’s a Christian holiday so yeah Christians know it happened...


Christians believe it happened.
That doesn't mean that they're right.

Plus, it's well-known that december 25 isn't actually the day on which jesus was born. It's just the day that his birth is celebrated.

Quote:

I am also trying to point out that people who don’t think Jesus was born on Christmas day should not celebrate the holiday its hypocritical and makes them look stupid in my opinion.


By that logic, you shouldn't attend a birthday party unless it's your own birthday.

You don't have to be personally affected by something in order to celebrate. Merry-making is fun no matter what you believe.

Quote:

That’s like celebrating Honika, Pesach, Eid al-Adha, Kwanza Im none of these religious so I don’t celebrate them. I believe you celebrate the holidays to your religion I’m weird like that, if the holiday it self is not a religious then that’s different but CHRISTmas is a Religious holiday period.


You celebrate it for religious reasons.

Many other people do not.
Unfortunately for you, your beliefs do not dictate reality; whether or not you believe christmas is entirely religious has nothing to do with whether or not it actually is religious.

Quote:

Obviously people will celebrate what they want and that’s their business but in my opinion it makes them look naive.


Do you understand what the word "naive" means?

This is what it means:
"marked by or showing unaffected simplicity and lack of guile or worldly experience"

I think the word you're looking for is "absurd","ridiculous", or something of that sort.
Back to top
Lester
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2774

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The bible tell us that there were shepherds in the fields at the time of Jesus' birth, not only that, but there was to be a census taken in bethlehem around that time cause Herod was all paranoid and stuff.

Now, do you really think that Herod would be so foolish as to call a consensus in the middle of WINTER?? REALLY??? Do you think that shepherds would be in the fields in the middle of WINTER?? REALLY???

The holy roman empire's expansion was made easier by adopting pagan holiday's into the christian religon, it doesn't matter whether Jesus was actually born of December 25th, by celebrating his birth then, it helped the empire expand, and it helped their religon expand, and thats what it's all about.
Back to top
PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
Known Associate
Known Associate


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 300
Location: Richmond, IN

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, Lester, do you know what Bethlehem's like in the winter? I've never been there but I'd think it would be sorta warm. And sheep need to eat all the time, it's not like they hibernate.
Back to top
His_Princess
Newbie


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Earth :D

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I understand what youíre saying, however honestly I think God appreciates Jesusí birth being celebrated period. I believe you when you say Jesus wasnít born on December 25th or winter for that matter, yes most likely it were in the spring. Yet this is the date that Christmas was chosen to be celebrated. I can care less why it was chosen on this date. I am still going to celebrate that Jesus was born regardless. It was a very holy night when he was born, very important to Christianity.

Also the person who curtsied my use of the word naÔve, I used naÔve since I was wanting to say stupid, the words you suggested would of worked as well.
Back to top
Lester
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2774

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem

http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm

http://be-think.typepad.com/be.....why_d.html


It's cooooold outside.
Back to top
exton
Forum Elder
Forum Elder


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess wrote:
I understand what you’re saying, however honestly I think God appreciates Jesus’ birth being celebrated period.


Why?

Your god seems to have a big thing about worship and tribute and celebration. It's like he's got a confidence problem or something.

Quote:
I used naÔve since I was wanting to say stupid, the words you suggested would of worked as well.


Naive is not synonymous with stupid.
Back to top
Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
His_Princess wrote:
I can care less why it was chosen on this date. I am still going to celebrate that Jesus was born regardless. It was a very holy night when he was born, very important to Christianity.


The whole problem you've had here is that you care less about why. Ignorance is bliss, eh? You accept your beliefs on "faith", and faith alone. You have no clue about the whats and wheres of your religions history - nor the whys of how it came to be. Now you've even stated that you don't care?! It's called blind faith, and that is the worst kind.

You claimed that an "agnostic Christmas" should not be celebrated when you really had no idea what that meant. It's clear that you had no idea that there is another history of that date and it is not originally, nor exclusively, a "Christian" one. You still haven't acknowledged that you understand the term used for the title of the essay... It would be like a country boy saying his truck was a "redneck ferrarri". It's not a ferrari but it is valued as such by the person who owns it.

If you had any true knowledge about your religions history, you would see it is just a complete fabrication made up of other past religions and astrology.

On another note:
In my opinion, from what I know about Jesus, I would say he's the worlds most popular insane person. He was no "son of God", he was nothing more than a Pat Roberson of today.. A nut job.


His_Princess wrote:

Also the person who curtsied my use of the word naÔve, I used naÔve since I was wanting to say stupid, the words you suggested would of worked as well.


Man, you should quit while you still have the shirt on your back.... "Curtsied"?

Did you mean "critiqued"?

You should have just said stupid then. And the words suggested would not have worked "as well", they would have worked BETTER. Naive does not mean stupid. Just like ignorant does not mean naive. And it is becoming quite apparent that you are very naive and ignorant.

Now, unless you care to learn something here, and stop ignoring the corrective facts that are made clear to you after you've said your opinion pieces, please stop inserting your ignorant comments thinking that others will fall to your level of your illogical reasoning.
Back to top
joeyjock
Known Associate
Known Associate


Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 227
Location: Fort Lauderdale

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay...
sorry to burst your Silent Night Holy Night snow globe bubble but Christmas was basically a PR campaign set back in the early days of christendom
...back in the days when St Paul...yes the apostle of old ...was laying down the firmament of what we are still struggling with hundreds of years later
..made some declarations
first Christ was said to be born on Dec 25
this was untrue
most scholars say that the true man who was Jesus Christ was born sometime in April
why the discrepancy???
Because the Romans..who the early christians wanted to convert were used to having pagan celebrations during that time
The Christmas tree was an old Germanic pagan symbol
And Santa Claus was taken from the tale of Odin...who would come to your house dressed as an old man - according to legend - and if you were hospitable to him he would leave you presents in the morning
Back to top
Post new topic   Reply to topic    LVC Home // Atheism Versus Religion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Add to My Yahoo! Add to Google

Politics Blogs - Blog Top Sites Politics Blogs Politics