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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="joeyjock"]whether an animal being cared for by a human is humane or not has absolutely nothing to do with slavery
a pet or a livestock animal is with it's master because it is beneficial to them
I don't think your dog would take you up on the offer if you shouted at the top of your lungs during a walk in the park... "Run Rover...run!!! You are now free!!!
Free to roam green pastures!!!"
As far as marriage....
the bible has some pretty odd ball suggestions on that part
I'm sure any wife in America at least would look at you very weirdly if you told her what the bible suggests literally[/quote]

OH REALLY and what are they? you probably think praying in public is weird too huh?
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Lester"]1. Who cares whether he values her opinions?? You want her to submit to him!! Seriously, you go ask Jane fonda whether she thinks thats good for women, if she says yes then I will forfeit this entire argument.

[b]lol what jane fonda thinks about this is irrelevant. You obviously don't understand what love is and thats exactly my point you dont care whether a man values a womans opinion.[/b]

2. No, they always existed, they were just ignored back then because the bible said it was okay to do so. Even if they didn't exist, would it change the fact that it was wrong?? No, it would not.

[b]you have still yet to prove that it was wrong. There is nothing wrong with working for someone unconditionally so that you can have food and shelter. Especially when you agree to it.[/b]

3. Oh ok, sure, give me a reputable source that backs up that claim. Also, just because being a slave beats dying doesn't mean that it's a *good* thing.

[b]reputable source for what? its good if its better than dying and the fact that slaves were treated pretty well by jewish masters.[/b]

4. No it could not! The reason Hitler ran his country so well was because all non-arians were forced to work without pay and all the money and goods that non-arians had was given to arians.

[b]I said in theory because if there is no opposition to the movement then there is no need for tyranny and oppression but obviously there will always be opposition to these movements and for good reason. to bring it back on point there was no opposition to slavery in the jewish community at this time because not even the slaves opposed it.[/b]

5. You don't understand, the hebrews thought they were above everyone else because they had this preconceived notion of divine right on their side, who is to say that they didn't just pretend god spoke to them to make themselves seem more important??

[b]you are absolutely right they did think they were better than everyone else even when they didn't obey him and because of their arrogance god punishes them many times. the bible is to say because many times when god speaks and they obey in the bible great things happened. Many stories in the bible confirm this but you don't believe these stories are true which is your problem to begin with.[/b]

6. If there is a specific punishment for stepping over a certain line, that means everything before that line doesn't have that punishment, therefore you were not punished for hitting your slaves, and since God is big on punishing those who do wrong, obviously it is not wrong.[/quote]

[b]you may not have been punished physically or legally for hitting a slave but all sins have consequences and yes god is big on punishment and disciplining slaves for no reason or unjustly definitely would have counted as a sin.[/b]
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. Jane Fonda is a prominent feminist, I am trying to show you that a wife submitting to her husband is sexist beyond belief, I believe that Fonda and women like her would be more informed on the subject than I.

2. Do you not understand that you can't agree to something if you are working for someone unconditionally?? You don't just give up that right, it is an inherent human right, and one that if God was truly merciful, he would have put in the bible.

3. That the majority of slaves chose to be slaves. Rape is better than dying, so I guess thats a good thing?? The lesser of two evils is still evil.

4. Slaves did not enjoy being slaves, ever, and even if they did, that doesn't make it right!!

5. So they thought they were better than everyone else, so they were like the arians? Yes? As for that being 'my problem to begin with', do you even know what circular reasoning is??

6. Then why wasn't it in the bible? Everything else was.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
christianzack wrote:

OH REALLY and what are they? you probably think praying in public is weird too huh?

... Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I [Paul, as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, with full authority of one inspired by God] suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [Men are to lead; women are to be modest, learning quietly, and in submission; in this way, they prove their claim to godliness.]
Just a few...
Praying in public?
Not at all...in public venues, like public schools or publicly sanctioned events like football games and parades...you bet I do
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Lester"]1. Jane Fonda is a prominent feminist, I am trying to show you that a wife submitting to her husband is sexist beyond belief, I believe that Fonda and women like her would be more informed on the subject than I.

[b]Doesn't matter who Jane Fonda. Just because she is a feminist doesn't mean she is right or that she has the authority to say something is right. In marriage one person must submit to the other and according to feminists it should be the man which would also be sexist. Its sexist either way and like i said just because a man is to rule over his wife does not mean he has to be a tyrant or oppressive. Like you love someone as much as you love your self you will treat them with respect and as an equal.[/b]

2. Do you not understand that you can't agree to something if you are working for someone unconditionally?? You don't just give up that right, it is an inherent human right, and one that if God was truly merciful, he would have put in the bible.

[b]Yes you can agree to waiver your rights we have done it several times by supporting bills and acts that limit privacy. God did put it in the bible its called FREE WILL the right to do whatever you want even turn your back on him or give yourself to another human being.[/b]

3. That the majority of slaves chose to be slaves. Rape is better than dying, so I guess thats a good thing?? The lesser of two evils is still evil.

[b]women don't agree to rape. Slaves agreed to slavery under the law. get it through your head.[/b]

4. Slaves did not enjoy being slaves, ever, and even if they did, that doesn't make it right!!

[b]how do you know they didn't enjoy what they did, never having to worry about where the next meal came from and whether or not they would have a place to sleep. There were even southern slaves that fought to defend their masters because they treated them well. The bible speaks of many slaves that loved the people they worked for and some characters in the bible were slaves themselves and never spoke of being mistreated.[/b]

5. So they thought they were better than everyone else, so they were like the arians? Yes? As for that being 'my problem to begin with', do you even know what circular reasoning is??

[b]every nation has a sense of nationalism and pride for who they are. Do you know what that word means? The arians had a case of ultranationalism which lead to what happened. Don't even compare arians to hebrews. The hebrews didn't cook people in ovens and put them in concentration camps to be tortured and starved to death. They certainly didn't believe that the world belonged to them and try to take it over either. Read the old testament some time instead of just pasting text out of it to prove a lost point.[/b]

6. Then why wasn't it in the bible? Everything else was.[/quote]

[b]because the bible was made to with stand the test of time. If it had everything in it it would be thousands of pages. The bible doesn't say pornography is wrong either but we know tht it is. God also gives his followers that little something called the holy spirit which helps you feel what is right and what is wrong. I can vouch for this I came to christ by myself and before i ever even opened a bible or talked to other christians about what sin was. I immediately knew that certain things were wrong with out ever being told and before i had never thought there was anything wrong with them. Explain that. [/b]
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. Why does marriage have to involve someone submitting?? People have healthy equal relationships all the time.

2. It's not a right if you get punished for doing it.

3. I just asked you to prove that to me!!

4. Yes of course the bible speaks like that, because it was written by the masters, not the slaves, you don't think thats slightly biased?

5. No, they just enslaved other races and invaded other territories because God promised them that land...

6. We know pornography is wrong?? I sure don't, I mean I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you've never gotten just a little bit excited by girls gone wild ads. Masturbation saves you from prostate cancer you know. There are certain things people think are wrong because of basic survival of the species. also, sorry if I don't take your personal voucher as proof of a phenomenon.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The lines of religious right and wrong are hazey at best. Not to mention the intolerance and violence religion creates, but you cant be wrong now can you. You know Gods "truth" and I emphasize truth.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Exactly, it's the same thing that let's the KKK murder without feeling guilty, or the spanish inquisition torture without a second thought, divine right is just an excuse to feel good about baad things.
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Lester"]1. Why does marriage have to involve someone submitting?? People have healthy equal relationships all the time.

[b]yah sure they do is that why divorce is at an all time high? and yes you can bring up that statistic about it being just as high with Christians as with non-christians but just because someone CLAIMS they are christian does not mean that they are or even practice what the bible says.[/b]

2. It's not a right if you get punished for doing it.

[b]yes it is we have a right to free speech and can get punished for using it in the wrong way say for instance if someone was to make a death threat they would get punished for it.
[/b]
3. I just asked you to prove that to me!!

[b]Prove what?[/b]

4. Yes of course the bible speaks like that, because it was written by the masters, not the slaves, you don't think thats slightly biased?

[b]there are passages written by slaves. Have you found those slave rebellions against the hebrews yet?
[/b]
5. No, they just enslaved other races and invaded other territories because God promised them that land...

[b]which chapters and verses refer to that? show me and i will clarify.[/b]

6. We know pornography is wrong?? I sure don't, I mean I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you've never gotten just a little bit excited by girls gone wild ads. Masturbation saves you from prostate cancer you know. There are certain things people think are wrong because of basic survival of the species. also, sorry if I don't take your personal voucher as proof of a phenomenon.[/quote]

Really than go tell everyone how much you love pornography they'll all approve im sure, besides pornography is clearly sexually immoral which the bible talks about several times as being wrong. studies have shown that men who watch pornography value their spouse and family less.

http://www.heritage.org/Resear.....11405a.cfm

Do you think thats a good thing?? not to mention how much it disgraces the human body. it has also been linked to serial murders and rapists as we see here.
http://www.ktk.ru/~cm/stat2.htm
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Lester"]Exactly, it's the same thing that let's the KKK murder without feeling guilty, or the spanish inquisition torture without a second thought, divine right is just an excuse to feel good about baad things.[/quote]

you act like there is not a single atheist that has ever done anything wrong or started a war ect. Just because these people claimed to have divine right does not mean they did, besides the bible does not condone torture.

Yes there are certain times when god says to attack and destroy certain people but only when they oppose israel, for if they hadn't destroyed them then they would have been destroyed thus defeating the purpose of them ever existing. Total pacifism will never work unless everyone practices it. If god was a pacifist than he would have been destroyed by Satan long ago. Why would a being with a purpose let that happen?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. Wait, are you saying the relationships that last the longest are the ones where one partner submits to the other?? Talk to some psychologists about that will you.

2. I'm going to kill you. Now please find someway to punish me for saying that.

3. This is the second time you have asked me this, please prove to me that slaves volunteered themselves and were treated well.

4. It's still the jews writing it, not the people who were enslaved by the jews.

5. Uhhh, the promised land? You don't know where in the bible it says that??

6. HEY EVERYBODY!!! I LOVE PORNOGRAPHY!! I THINK IT IS A GREAT WAY FOR WOMEN TO ASSERT THEMSELVES AND PROFIT FROM THE WAY MEN CAN'T CONTROL THEIR OWN URGES!! Happy? The first website lists things that would make a man look at pornography if he was married, not things that are caused by pronography, this is the fallacy of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" check it out on wikipedia. Also the research it refers to, if you read it, points out that the second link is not confirmed by their statistics. Also the research states pictorial nudity reduces aggression. Also, after viewing pornography, criminals were more likely to commit a sex act then non-criminals, making it clear that it is the kind of person that effects the reaction to pornography, not the pornography itself. Also it is noted in the research that pornography relieves stress, educates, and supports.

7. I did not say that atheists do no wrong, I just stated my opinion of what divine right is, don't construct straw man arguments against me please.
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ringwormbettie
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
In marriage one person must submit to the other and according to feminists it should be the man which would also be sexist.


Not all feminists think that the husband should submit to them. I am a feminist and I believe men and women are equal and should be treated equal. I don't think that my husband should submit to me and I don't think I should submit to my husband. Marriage is an equal partnership.

Are you married? I would like to know how things are run in your house. Are you the one that is the dominant? Or is your wife?

Why do you think one person has to dominate?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ringwormbettie wrote:
Quote:
In marriage one person must submit to the other and according to feminists it should be the man which would also be sexist.


Not all feminists think that the husband should submit to them. I am a feminist and I believe men and women are equal and should be treated equal. I don't think that my husband should submit to me and I don't think I should submit to my husband. Marriage is an equal partnership.

Are you married? I would like to know how things are run in your house. Are you the one that is the dominant? Or is your wife?

Why do you think one person has to dominate?


He's long since left I believe, but yes, his views on womens roles in society were slightly skewed.
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