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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
christianzack wrote:
Lester wrote:
The bible also says working on the sabbath is punishable by death, and there is controversy over which day is actually the sabbath.


first of all that was the general principal of his teachings and there are plenty of specifics if you read what he says in the bible.

and im talking about what Jesus said not about what other people in the bible said because his teachings were much different.

yes, there were many sins in the bible punishable by death and god made people aware of them. Its not his fault people still disobeyed. It would be like sitting someone in a room and putting 2 buttons in front of them, then telling them "push the green one and you will live, push the red one and you will die instantly." Then they push the red button and die instantly. You cant get mad at someone for simply following through with their promises.


That is a highly convoluted arguement you got there
...are you actually arguing for the sins that are punishable by death in the bible?...or not?
Things like adultery
cursing one's parents
divination
blasphemy
sacrificing to false gods
...and on and on

...and you're advocating that?
come on it's time to own up to the fact that you can't live by the bible and pick and choose what you want from it
It's all or nothing my man
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="joeyjock"][quote="christianzack"][quote="Lester"]The bible also says working on the sabbath is punishable by death, and there is controversy over which day is actually the sabbath.[/quote]

first of all that was the general principal of his teachings and there are plenty of specifics if you read what he says in the bible.

and im talking about what Jesus said not about what other people in the bible said because his teachings were much different.

yes, there were many sins in the bible punishable by death and god made people aware of them. Its not his fault people still disobeyed. It would be like sitting someone in a room and putting 2 buttons in front of them, then telling them "push the green one and you will live, push the red one and you will die instantly." Then they push the red button and die instantly. You cant get mad at someone for simply following through with their promises.[/quote]

That is a highly convoluted arguement you got there
...are you actually arguing for the sins that are punishable by death in the bible?...or not?
Things like adultery
cursing one's parents
divination
blasphemy
sacrificing to false gods
...and on and on

...and you're advocating that?
come on it's time to own up to the fact that you can't live by the bible and pick and choose what you want from it
It's all or nothing my man[/quote]

actually all of mankind was freed from the law after jesus died it was the whole point so there is nothing to pick from even jesus himself said not to follow the law any more because people had made an idol out of the laws themselves as well as a mockery.

Also in many cases where the old testament said that certain sins were punishable by death they meant that death was a possible punishment and not the only punishment. one of my favorite things is where it says a disobedient child should be stoned. It says SHOULD not will. They never stoned disobedient children. It was merely that author portraying the severity of such sin.

Besides I would challenge anyone to find something in the bible that Jesus said that should not be practiced or is not agreeable. GO AHEAD! Smile
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Charlie Manson said tons of good things, i doubt you could something that is not agreeable that he said, and yet, he led a group that slaughtered people.

If we are free from all laws then why do we have to follow god?

As for that example with the red button and the green button, well like exton said, what kind of sick fuck does that to somebody? My dad is colour blind, how the hell could he tell!?!?
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is the problem with the way the christian right portrays everything from the bible...
they're very quick to cite the old testament and rarely if ever cite the new
...in my opinion because the new testament...mostly the teachings of Jesus leans very much toward the left
Crime and Punishment: If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her. [John 8:7] Do not judge, lest
you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you. [Matthew 7:1 & 2.]
Community: Love your neighbor as yourself. .[Matthew 22:39] So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you.
[Matthew 7:12.] If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
[Matthew 19:21]
The right is quick to condemn and calls out Jesus' name but rarely uses his wisdom
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
whoop-di-frickin-doo, we already knew the bible contradicts itself, but you can't just cut and paste, if you believe the bible is true you believe it's ALL true.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thats exactly my point...
The right has been picking and choosing what they want to push as their agenda for years --- never owning up to the fact that Jesus was the first bleeding heart liberal the world had ever seen
...ya think Jesus woulda said, "bring'em on" ?
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Lester"]Charlie Manson said tons of good things, i doubt you could something that is not agreeable that he said, and yet, he led a group that slaughtered people.

If we are free from all laws then why do we have to follow god?

As for that example with the red button and the green button, well like exton said, what kind of sick fuck does that to somebody? My dad is colour blind, how the hell could he tell!?!?[/quote]

ummmm yah he said several things that were disagreeable especially when he told his people to kill and have you ever heard his songs??? oh and jesus never murdered someone so thats not even a valid arguement.

Jewish law was far different from what jesus asked of us. Plus the ten commandments were separate from the jewish law.

that situation was hypothetical not actual. The fact is is that god said if you do this i may kill you and despite that people still did it. It doesnt matter how little the act was. God probably did that just to show man how disobedient he was. Obviously if someone tells you they are gonna kill you if you do something no matter how small you probably shouldnt do it. am i right? besides you have a soul and even if you die your not really dead so its not like its that cruel of a punishment if you live on afterwards but of coarse you dont believe that so it obviously wont make any sense to you. Wink
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The problem isn't the "law" per se. It is the way the laws are "interpreted" over time that makes organized religion arbitrary and at times grossly in favor of majority rules over everything
Did not the slave owners in the south defend their taking of slaves by the bible? The bible allows for the keeping of slaves
Didn't and don't some mormons believe and still practise polygamy
when you have the ability to interpret anything you like a book of rules suddenly becomes a very dangerous instrument
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="joeyjock"]The problem isn't the "law" per se. It is the way the laws are "interpreted" over time that makes organized religion arbitrary and at times grossly in favor of majority rules over everything
Did not the slave owners in the south defend their taking of slaves by the bible? The bible allows for the keeping of slaves
Didn't and don't some mormons believe and still practise polygamy
when you have the ability to interpret anything you like a book of rules suddenly becomes a very dangerous instrument[/quote]

interpretation is a danger with any peice of literature not just the bible. There is always gonna be some crazy person out there who will justify his/her acts by using laws, documents, or scriptures. Take for instance the constitution. It says we have the right to pursue happiness. If you enjoy killing people, using drugs and or molesting children you could use that particular line in the constitution to support your action saying you need it to be happy. now does tis mean there is anything wrong with the constitution???? no. It was someone simply trying to slip through the cracks. There are many grey areas in the bible as well as the constitution. If you practice what jesus taught which is to love someone as you love yourself you wouldn't keep slaves.

I have never even read a passage in the bible that supports slavery. Yes that does not mean it doesnt exist but if you could point it out for me i could clarify it.

What mormons do is irrelevant to me because the new testament clearly says you can only have 1 wife and the founder of it violated the final paragraph of the bible which says that nothing is to be added to the bible.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was using those examples as an ilustration for all organized religions because they all work the same
... believe as I do or you're going to hell...or you're going to be damned or you're to be shunned, killed, starved made war against...it's a never ending list
One of many....
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="joeyjock"]That is the problem with the way the christian right portrays everything from the bible...
they're very quick to cite the old testament and rarely if ever cite the new
...in my opinion because the new testament...mostly the teachings of Jesus leans very much toward the left
Crime and Punishment: If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her. [John 8:7] Do not judge, lest
you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you. [Matthew 7:1 & 2.]
Community: Love your neighbor as yourself. .[Matthew 22:39] So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you.
[Matthew 7:12.] If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
[Matthew 19:21]
The right is quick to condemn and calls out Jesus' name but rarely uses his wisdom[/quote]

are you saying these passages are disagreeable???
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="joeyjock"]I was using those examples as an ilustration for all organized religions because they all work the same
... believe as I do or you're going to hell...or you're going to be damned or you're to be shunned, killed, starved made war against...it's a never ending list
One of many....
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)[/quote]

yes its a never ending list and people have a problem with it because they want to keep sinning and not feel guilty about and i know that in your eyes what you or others do isnt wrong, but the bible says it is and thats why god offered jesus so that people wouldnt have to go to hell for sins.

The simple fact is is that no one could live a sinless life not even for a month so therefore they say oh jesus couldnt have done that. without sins the world would be perfect!

and to answer you criticism of slavery in the bible, slaves in the bible gave themselves into slavery voluntarily and were treated quite well. This is not the same as southern slavery. the bible explicitly forbids stealing of men and women for forced labor. Lets face it there werent a lot of jobs around back then so if you didnt own any land you could not raise or grow anything for food so what did you do? you offered yourself as a servant to someone who did and in exchange they fed you and gave you a place to stay. The only slaves per say that were forced to work were prisoners of war who obviously werent good for anything else because had they let them go they would have faught again and it was better than killing them.

if you would like find a passage in the bible that involves slave mistreatment that wasnt punished or of any slave rebellions id be happy to read them. Very Happy
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr zack...
please say that I didn't hear you say that the slaves were treated well and that they went into slavery via their own volition
...as if owning a slave is the "Christian" thing to do
slaves of the time were taken from other waring tribes
and they were NOT treated with anything that we would consider kindness
I'm sorry the bible condonned many things that we would consider evil today
beating of children
and beating of women
killing for what we now call "trivial" crimes
to use this book as a compendium for a "good" life smacks as hypocrasy
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christianzack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="joeyjock"]Mr zack...
please say that I didn't hear you say that the slaves were treated well and that they went into slavery via their own volition
...as if owning a slave is the "Christian" thing to do
slaves of the time were taken from other waring tribes
and they were NOT treated with anything that we would consider kindness
I'm sorry the bible condonned many things that we would consider evil today
beating of children
and beating of women
killing for what we now call "trivial" crimes
to use this book as a compendium for a "good" life smacks as hypocrasy[/quote]

yes people did voluntarily become slaves. There were many people that sold themselves into slavery just so they could have food and shelter you forget that at this time there was severe poverty. show me a verse of the bible where it condones the harsh treatment of slaves and where it says people were held against there will. Slaves were bought and only taken when they were prisoners of war as i explained earlier.

um yah it does say you can discipline a child just as any parent does. It never says to beat a child to a bloody pulp. It says he who spares the rod does not love his child and this is true. There are times when a openly defiant child needs to be physically disciplined because that is all they will understand at a young age. Your putting words into the bible.

and where do you get that the beating of women is ok?? you'll need to support these claims with verses to make a valid argument. Besides there are times that every person need to be physically punished for crimes and we still practice this today all over the world. Ever heard of the electric chair, caning, even imprisonment could be considered physical punishment.
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joeyjock
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

So just make sure when you beat a slave...let him survive a day or two
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