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Lester
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
exton wrote:
Lester wrote:
I thought Entropy was inevitable?

Also that it was the breaking down of all order, so that all matter will be evenly spaced throughout the universe.


Well, to be precise, the second law of thermodynamics states: in a closed system, entropy always increases.

There are a number of ways of think about that, but it basically just means that emergy spreads out; over time, you have less and less useable energy.


And since we assume that the universe is a closed system then eventually all energy will be all spaced out, including energy that drives humans and therefore humanity = dead.

Of course it'll take a while, but still.
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Docsmitter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
exton wrote:
Lester wrote:
I thought Entropy was inevitable?

Also that it was the breaking down of all order, so that all matter will be evenly spaced throughout the universe.


Well, to be precise, the second law of thermodynamics states: in a closed system, entropy always increases.

There are a number of ways of think about that, but it basically just means that emergy spreads out; over time, you have less and less useable energy.


And since we assume that the universe is a closed system then eventually all energy will be all spaced out, including energy that drives humans and therefore humanity = dead.

Of course it'll take a while, but still.


Its a cycle we loos energy and we gain energy, sometimes we loose more then we gain, sometimes we gain more then we loose... but the point is, energy is always there, just in different forms.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's true that energy never increases or decreases in it's totality, but with entropy and the expansion of the universe eventually everyone and everything will just be tiny little atoms spread out amoungst a void.
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Oolon Colluphid
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lester wrote:
It's true that energy never increases or decreases in it's totality, but with entropy and the expansion of the universe eventually everyone and everything will just be tiny little atoms spread out amoungst a void.


Okay, I have a question to put out.

In your last post, you said that the universe is a closed system. In this post, you say that with entropy and expansion, we (the universe) will be nothing but atoms amongst a void.

Well, it is known that with entropy, we reach a point that there is no more usable energy - Thermal equilibrium. This is, of course, dependant on a closed system.

Now, it is said that in M-Theory, sub-atomic particles seem to disappear into parallel universes, than reappear back into ours. I've never heard this suggested before, but could it be possible that with these particles that can pop in and out of existence between universes mean that we are not entirely in a closed system? Perhaps these particles can either transfer energy, or regenerate energy between universes to retard (for lack of a better word), or even reverse entropy from reaching thermal equalibrium in our own universe?

If we look at the idea that with parallel universes, we could be looking at an infinite number, or even infinite time, that energy can be used. And with infinity, we also have an impossibility that an end to useful energy can happen!

"There are not so many that there are no more." ~William of Ockham

Hmmmmm....
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So we take energy out of other universes where it's possible more civilized and humane beings live to fuel ourselves? I dunno about that.

Even if we could get energy from other universes, and we got more than it cost us to extract, is it ethical to take energy from a world we know nothing about?

Not only this, but if we're doing it to other worlds, whats to say that others aren't doing it to our world? Thereby making any effort by us merely a stopgap.
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CryxicKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is plainly wrong to suggest that everything in the Universe will just be "atoms in a void." The Universe will continue to expand forever, but that has more to do with the effects of gravitation rather than entropy. What is actually "expanding" is the very fabric of spacetime. Matter in our Universe will eventually coalesce around little clusters. Galaxies will still continue to exist, but in far greater isolation than they are now. Furthermore, the average temperature in the Universe will continue to plumet because of the expansion. This will take billions of years to materialize, and if humanity has managed to live up to that point, I'm sure it will have no problem surviving.

Energy from other Universes? Don't bet on it, although it would be cool.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A human body is a more organized form than if all those atoms were just separate correct? Therefore with entropy and enough time, atoms in a void.
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CryxicKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
At the atomic level, particles do seem like they're in a void. You might as well say atoms are in a void right now. But I don't think this is what you mean. If you mean what I think you mean, then you are completely wrong. Galactic structures will remain intact forever, prohibiting some weird quantum tunneling effects that somehow completely and fundamentally destroy or alter this Universe, but the difference is that they will be further from other such structures than they are now (hence the dropping temperatures). Basically, there will never be a moment in the history of this Universe when atoms are just "dangling" in the "void." I notice the same methodological problems here as in our other debate; you are using logic exclusively to adjudicate on a nomological point. Not to be rude in any way, but if you wish to make claims about this areas, I'd urge you brush up your knowledge on it.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm just applying entropy to the current universe. Think about it, if the heat gets more and more spread out the suns cannot be as big as they are and so they can't hold as many things in orbit and eventually all the suns will die out.

I don't mean to state, I'm just asking whether this is right.
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CryxicKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The one scientific scenario that relates to the end of the Universe and entropy is called "Heat Death." In Heat Death, the Universe is at maximum entropy; all the energy in the Universe has dispersed to areas with lower levels of energy. The Universe reaches a thermodynamic equlibrium state, followed by other equilibriums with other forms of energy, and nothing happens any more. Nothing can move, nothing can do anything; information processing is over. As you can probably conclude by now, what also becomes impossible is the ripping of atoms apart from each other. So the structures of the Universe still remain intact because none can do any work, although stars and all that, yeah, those will be gone because all the reactions will have occurred. There are also other proposals regarding the end of the Universe, but this is the one that most strongly relates to entropy. Hopefully this clarified some of your inquiries.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
At maximum entropy however, how could you have something as ordered as a planet or a tree?

Wouldn't Heat Death mean the dispersion of all ordered things into choas?
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CryxicKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ooo excuse me! I misspoke somewhat. I did not take into account proton decay. If protons decay, which has still not been observed but is hypothesized, with good reasons, then all this will happen. All that will be left in the end is heat and radiation.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thats what I had thought/heard was the end result of entropy, thankyou for confirming it though, I wasn't sure.
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CryxicKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A piss-poor ending if you ask me. That's why I'm arbitrarily abandoning reason and evidence in this one case and hoping that protons don't decay. At the first instant when humanity confirms that protons decay, then we can start weeping openly, because god created a universe that the mofo knew would end. Cruel, sadistic bastard....
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Lester
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, pisspoor, but we won't be around to see it, well, you won't, I plan to live forever, so mebbe I will Razz

If we could find some way to organize things without expending heat...
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