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10 Questions that Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mimicry, like parrots do, which corresponded with certain ideas.
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exton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, maybe you answered my question, im not sure. I'll ask it more specifically: where did the FIRST words come from?

This is what i think you're saying:
You believe that, in order to think, we need words.
You acknowledge that an idea has to come before we have a word for it; your explanation for this is that people frame ideas in terms of words they already have, and then, if they like, come up with a new word for it.

But where did the first words come from? Before man had language, he would have been unable to frame ideas in terms of words that he already had, because he had no words.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well ok, it's obviously just a theorizing here as no-one even knows what the first word was or what it meant, but I would think that "eat" would be one of the first words to be developed, and I would think that it would have descended, quite simply, from a neanderthal or a pre-homo sapien of some kind, miming eating, the word then was just a bastardization of the original miming.
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exton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A person miming an action in order to communicate it is a form of language.

And i thought of a better way to phrase my question:

If you need words to think, and you need to think to make words...where do either one of them come from?

And if you'd like evidence of a genetic basis for language, i have a good example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOXP2
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Lester
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't think you *do* need to think to make words though.
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exton
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do you believe that we do not need to think in order to form and relate ideas?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Parrots and other animals have forms of communication, I wouldn't call their brain functions "thinking".
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you believe that ALL forms of communication constitute language, then i suppose your thesis is correct. I don't think that's an accurate statement, though; language, in the sense that english is a language, isn't the same as the communication used by, say, birds, or neurons, or anythign else.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No, but I think words aren't neccesarily language.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I guess i'd agree, in that words are part of language, but don't constitute language on their own.

But that's not what you had originally claimed - you claimed that words aren't necessarily symbols.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, and that language was made up of symbols, hence words aren't neccesarily language.
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree that words aren't necessarily language, but they are certainly necessarily symbols.

Another way of putting it is that symbols aren't necessarily language, either.
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Language is neccesarily symbols though. Yes, that is the one place we disagree, but, if you assume that I am right about words not neccesarily being symbols(I say this because symbols are completely subjective, nothing is *always* a symbol) then my thesis would be quite correct yes?
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exton
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Your thesis that thought is dependent upon language? Or your thesis that words can form without thought?
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Lester
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Both,
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